Dumb Athletic Directors.

[DG]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

It was not a simple question. It was the beginning of an S-storm, one Mark properly avoided. You can't tell me you think AD was asking this for any reason other than to get into an argument, can you?

If that is his purpose then he is a RAT too, and less said the better. Follow the stupid state rules and no more. These rules apparently require you to speak with, but not to argue with.

[Publius]

Originally Posted by DG

Follow the stupid state rules and no more.

My seasons go a lot smoother because I ignore the stupid state "rules". The state association is not my employer, and I don't see any compelling reason to care about what they think I ought to do relative to a contract I have with a school to officiate baseball games at that school.

Schools are association members; officials are not. You don't have to dance to every tune it calls.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Publius

My seasons go a lot smoother because I ignore the stupid state "rules". The state association is not my employer, and I don't see any compelling reason to care about what they think I ought to do relative to a contract I have with a school to officiate baseball games at that school.

Schools are association members; officials are not. You don't have to dance to every tune it calls.

Don't they have a say over if you are eligible to work games? The requirement was to have them inform the school, not give reasons why they made a call or what is even typical. Mark followed that with flying colors and probably could tell by the tone in the voice of the AD and the nature of the questions how it was going to end up. If he had had a confrontation with him it would have been blown out of proportion. Best to just get off the phone and move an anyway. Not sure how anyone can think that is not acceptable. But then again people have a right to their opinions.

Peace

[Publius]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Don't they have a say over if you are eligible to work games? The requirement was to have them inform the school, not give reasons why they made a call or what is even typical. Mark followed that with flying colors and probably could tell by the tone in the voice of the AD and the nature of the questions how it was going to end up. If he had had a confrontation with him it would have been blown out of proportion. Best to just get off the phone and move an anyway. Not sure how anyone can think that is not acceptable. But then again people have a right to their opinions.

Peace

It's only "better" to get off the phone and move on; "best" is not getting on the phone at all.

They have a say over some games directly, and some indirectly. This differs from state to state. They can (and have) removed me from consideration for the state tournament beyond the first round. Given the quality of about 50% of those who work the state finals every year, I wouldn't even consider it an honor to be offered a slot, because merit clearly is not at the top of the selection criteria.

They can refuse to register me, and schools could then still hire me if they wished, but at the risk of being excluded from participation in the state tournament if they are found out. Few would do that, I'm sure.

State associations will not involve themselves in directly saying that schools may absolutely not hire unregistered officials, because they know that puts them perilously close to being labeled an employer. The irrefutable fact is, I have no contract with the state association; therefore, I have no reason to care what they "require" or recommend.

If I think it's reasonable (e.g., a written report within 48 hours), I do it; if not, (e.g., calling the ADs, PU covers third on a naked triple, signing scorebooks) I don't.

On this issue, I sit in the catbird's seat: the schools want quality officials, and I am one, but if the state association puts me on a blacklist, I couldn't care less. HS baseball is a break-even filler between the profitable college and summer-ball seasons. It's the lowest quality and least profitable season I work.

Officials do themselves no favors by allowing state associations to dictate the terms of how independent contractors conduct their business, when those associations are not contractual parties.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Publius

It's only "better" to get off the phone and move on; "best" is not getting on the phone at all.

They have a say over some games directly, and some indirectly. This differs from state to state. They can (and have) removed me from consideration for the state tournament beyond the first round. Given the quality of about 50% of those who work the state finals every year, I wouldn't even consider it an honor to be offered a slot, because merit clearly is not at the top of the selection criteria.

They can refuse to register me, and schools could then still hire me if they wished, but at the risk of being excluded from participation in the state tournament if they are found out. Few would do that, I'm sure.

State associations will not involve themselves in directly saying that schools may absolutely not hire unregistered officials, because they know that puts them perilously close to being labeled an employer. The irrefutable fact is, I have no contract with the state association; therefore, I have no reason to care what they "require" or recommend.

If I think it's reasonable (e.g., a written report within 48 hours), I do it; if not, (e.g., calling the ADs, PU covers third on a naked triple, signing scorebooks) I don't.

On this issue, I sit in the catbird's seat: the schools want quality officials, and I am one, but if the state association puts me on a blacklist, I couldn't care less. HS baseball is a break-even filler between the profitable college and summer-ball seasons. It's the lowest quality and least profitable season I work.

Officials do themselves no favors by allowing state associations to dictate the terms of how independent contractors conduct their business, when those associations are not contractual parties.

If I am going to do the games at any level, I am going to follow all their procedures to the best of my ability. If you cannot do that, do not take the game. When you accept a contract, you accept the responsibility of what is being asked of you. Of course you do not have to follow those rules, but why give someone a chance to say you did not follow the procedures? You do not do this, they will claim you do not do other things just as fast.

Peace

[Publius]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If I am going to do the games at any level, I am going to follow all their procedures to the best of my ability. If you cannot do that, do not take the game. When you accept a contract, you accept the responsibility of what is being asked of you. Of course you do not have to follow those rules, but why give someone a chance to say you did not follow the procedures? You do not do this, they will claim you do not do other things just as fast.

Peace

It's a two-way street. If they want to insist I'm an IC, they don't get to tell me how to accomplish a task.

My game contract is not with the state association. They insist officials are independent contractors, then thrust an adhesion contract (registration) in your face that violates many of the tenets of an IC relationship.

I administer games in accordance with the PLAYING rules. Uniforms, mechanics, and post-game administration are the province of the IC. If they want to dictate otherwise, they can adhere to ALL the tenets of the employer/employee relationship.

Another two-way street is, "If you don't like how I administer games, don't offer me games." I make myself available to work; I don't ask for games. Schools don't have to offer them via their designated assignor, but they do.

All I'm saying, Rut, is that we aren't their employees, so if they want us to be ICs, I'm going to behave like one, regardless of their "contracts," the terms of which I have no say.

They can't have their cake, and eat it, too. If you allow that, you do yourself and your fellow officials no favors.

Many officials will polish any apple, shine any shoe, and kiss any a$$ for a shot at the state finals. That's short-sighted. We aren't the whipping boys of the state association or the schools. Too many are willing to be treated as such, and that's why we are.

They like to tell us how valued we are, but when push comes to shove, they'll throw us under the bus.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Publius

It's a two-way street. If they want to insist I'm an IC, they don't get to tell me how to accomplish a task.

My game contract is not with the state association. They insist officials are independent contractors, then thrust an adhesion contract (registration) in your face that violates many of the tenets of an IC relationship.

I administer games in accordance with the PLAYING rules. Uniforms, mechanics, and post-game administration are the province of the IC. If they want to dictate otherwise, they can adhere to ALL the tenets of the employer/employee relationship.

Another two-way street is, "If you don't like how I administer games, don't offer me games." I make myself available to work; I don't ask for games. Schools don't have to offer them via their designated assignor, but they do.

All I'm saying, Rut, is that we aren't their employees, so if they want us to be ICs, I'm going to behave like one, regardless of their "contracts," the terms of which I have no say.

They can't have their cake, and eat it, too. If you allow that, you do yourself and your fellow officials no favors.

Many officials will polish any apple, shine any shoe, and kiss any a$$ for a shot at the state finals. That's short-sighted. We aren't the whipping boys of the state association or the schools. Too many are willing to be treated as such, and that's why we are.

They like to tell us how valued we are, but when push comes to shove, they'll throw us under the bus.

It sounds like you are more worried about kissing someone's *** than you are doing your job. Yes I am an independent contractor, but that means that I do not work for the school or the state. But if I am a contractor in any other profession, it is possible that you will be governed by rules or laws that have nothing to do with who I work with or under. If you are an insurance agent, , you might not be an employee for a company that you sell products for, but if you want to keep your license you better follow the procedures that are asked of you or in those cases you might be fined or go to jail. Now it is not that series as an official, but if you do not want to play by their rules, then do not take the games. This has nothing to do with going to the state tournament or not. I know if a league which you claim you work more than HS wanted you to do something, and if you did not do what they asked you might not be able to work games. I do not see the big deal.

Peace

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Publius

It's a two-way street. If they want to insist I'm an IC, they don't get to tell me how to accomplish a task.

My game contract is not with the state association. They insist officials are independent contractors, then thrust an adhesion contract (registration) in your face that violates many of the tenets of an IC relationship.

I administer games in accordance with the PLAYING rules. Uniforms, mechanics, and post-game administration are the province of the IC. If they want to dictate otherwise, they can adhere to ALL the tenets of the employer/employee relationship.

Another two-way street is, "If you don't like how I administer games, don't offer me games." I make myself available to work; I don't ask for games. Schools don't have to offer them via their designated assignor, but they do.

All I'm saying, Rut, is that we aren't their employees, so if they want us to be ICs, I'm going to behave like one, regardless of their "contracts," the terms of which I have no say.

They can't have their cake, and eat it, too. If you allow that, you do yourself and your fellow officials no favors.

Many officials will polish any apple, shine any shoe, and kiss any a$$ for a shot at the state finals. That's short-sighted. We aren't the whipping boys of the state association or the schools. Too many are willing to be treated as such, and that's why we are.

They like to tell us how valued we are, but when push comes to shove, they'll throw us under the bus.

I'm sorry to say, but you are just wrong here.

To get the contract in the first place you have to be a registered official. To be a registered official, you have to agree to abide by the bylaws of the association.

If you register as an official and yet refuse to conduct yourself according to the association's rules and regulations, you have failed to conduct yourself with integrity.

There is nothing inconsistent here with an independent contractor relationship.

[RadioBlue]

Originally Posted by Publius

State associations will not involve themselves in directly saying that schools may absolutely not hire unregistered officials, because they know that puts them perilously close to being labeled an employer. The irrefutable fact is, I have no contract with the state association; therefore, I have no reason to care what they "require" or recommend.

If I think it's reasonable (e.g., a written report within 48 hours), I do it; if not, (e.g., calling the ADs, PU covers third on a naked triple, signing scorebooks) I don't.

Are you sure you don't have a contract with the state association? Isn't it called a license?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Publius

My seasons go a lot smoother because I ignore the stupid state "rules". The state association is not my employer, and I don't see any compelling reason to care about what they think I ought to do relative to a contract I have with a school to officiate baseball games at that school.

Schools are association members; officials are not. You don't have to dance to every tune it calls.

When I register with the state association, I'm agreeing to work the associated games in accordance with the association's rules. If you don't like the rules, you are free not to register with them, but you are also giving up working associated games.

The state association here is the regulator and while I don't know about Michigan, I do know Ohio will levy a significant fine if you ignore their regulations.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by RadioBlue

Are you sure you don't have a contract with the state association? Isn't it called a license?

Not in all states... but I just checked mine, and nothing on that license says I have to cowtow to rat AD's asking "non-germaine" questions trying to talk me into a corner or bait me into an argument.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Not in all states... but I just checked mine, and nothing on that license says I have to cowtow to rat AD's asking "non-germaine" questions trying to talk me into a corner or bait me into an argument.

He (radio blue) said he wouldn't even call.

If that's part of the procedure in a state, I'd call. but I also "cowtow to rat AD's asking "non-germaine" questions trying to talk me into a corner or bait me into an argument".

The two ideas can co-exist.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

nothing on that license says I have to cowtow to rat AD's asking "non-germaine" questions trying to talk me into a corner or bait me into an argument.

It's on Missouri's. Word-for-word.