Use of indicators

jicecone · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 04, 2003, 12:59pm

I am one of those guys that have NOT used an indicator for about 12 years. It started on a dare and it seems that once I got used to NOT using one, it was impossible to even try using it again. I'm talking about officiating all levels from LL - College and Semi-Pro. Both on the bases and behind the plate.

Being an Engineer, bobbling numbers around in my head is an every day event, so mabey it just comes easy for me. However, I have found that I tend to make the SAME amount of errors not using an indicator, as those officials that do use one. But, I hear more critisim about it than the official that makes a mistake using one. I guess it's perception.

I thought I would throw this out for discussion during the dog days of winter. What are your experiences and prefrences? I think it would be interesting to find out.

greymule · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 04, 2003, 03:23pm

I have often wondered whether I'd be more accurate without an indicator. When I rely on one, I don't think about the count, and, especially after passed balls, steals, etc., I often can't remember whether or not I've clicked the indicator.

When I work with my usual partners, we make it point to remind each other of the count after every such play, but when I'm working a one-man game . . .

I may try the no-indicator route this year.

Tim C · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 04, 2003, 03:45pm

I have NEVER used an idiclickercounter on the bases and have ALWAYS used an indiclickercounter on the dish.

I have "several" times lost the count when on the dish but don't remember "ever" having lost the count on the bases.

Of course when working as a BU and a player says, "What's the count?" I always answer, "HECK if I know, let's ask the guy on the dish, he cares!"

Tee

senior · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 04, 2003, 08:58pm

Since I haven't attended a pro school, I haven't been under any pressure to NOT use an indicator, therefore I always have one, both at the dish, and on the bases. I'm afraid I have to agree with Carl on this one, especially his point that Balls and Strikes are everybody's business.

I don't make a big deal out of it, and only my partner and I notice the co-operative effort between us, so I don't understand why it should be of as much interest as it seems to be.

During one of our District clinics, our two instructors, both recent pro-school clinic attendees, strongly advocated the "no indicator on the bases" philosophy. Time passed, and eventually they had a game where they both lost the count, so it was now O.K. to keep an indicator in use to "help out" your partner.

I've always figured it helped.....we co-operate on infield fly situations, we communicate on situations where coverage help is needed, we cover each other's butts on everything else, why should we look like a mummy on a potential problem with the ball-strike count?

Senior

edhern · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 04, 2003, 11:27pm

I've gradually stopped using an indicator behind the plate. It was annoying to hold, especially with my hands on knees plate stance (a la Gerry Davis) and made it more difficult to remove my mask. I tried keeping it in my ball bag, but found I didn't always reset it for each batter (the counts never were 4 balls and three strikes). So I just stopped. I inform my partner, all of them use it in the field, in case I lose count. It used to happen once or twice in a game depending on my level of concentration (which I become more vigilant) or if there is plenty of action between pitches (i.e, steals or pickoffs with overthrows) and other times I am not always positive. The batter or catcher are always good for a correction. However, as time goes on you get accustomed to it and develop ways to keep better track and lose count much less often.

Ed H

sneallyk · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 09:50am

To the guys who don't use a counter, shame on you! It's a tool for umpires that is supposed to hold them accountable for the bucks you are earning. Where would a basketball referee be if he didn't use a whistle because it was too difficult too use. Learn to use the tools of your trade.

jicecone · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 02:41pm

"To the guys who don't use a counter, shame on you! It's a tool for umpires that is supposed to hold them accountable for the bucks you are earning. Where would a basketball referee be if he didn't use a whistle because it was too difficult too use. Learn to use the tools of your trade."

YOUR KIDDING, RIGHT?

Last time I checked my ,"idiclickercounter" (Thankyou Tim C)only had numbers on and if I remember, there were never enough for balls, strikes and outs. The IRS holds me accountable at the end of the year for the bucks I earn for each game.

I really think you are confused with the words "Perception" and "Professionalism". Because of your own inadequacies and abilty to deal with more than one thing at a time in your head, it does'nt mean others lack this talent. "Perception".

I think that an umpire looks far more the part when they are'nt always using that tool as a crutch. So focused on what is in their hand, that other things around them are flying over their heads. "Professionalism" To each his own, but to associate the money one earns for umpiring a game, with the umpires ability, is totally two different subjects.

No one has said that not using an "idiclickercounter" was easier, in fact it is just the opposite. I got so good using it, that I did'nt look at it anyway.

Where would this world be today if everyone just accepted the common tools of the trade as gospel. That Basketball Official would probably be running around the court screaming "TOOT TOOT". Thank god for those that feel it ok to be different.

greymule · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 02:47pm

OK, it's decided. This year I'm going to try using no indicator. But I'll have to put pebbles in my pocket to count the runs in those slow pitch games. No "inning" wheel to use as a run counter.

jicecone · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 03:03pm

I know an umpire that did a game in his bare feet. True story. I think he was one of the first, not use an indicator. But I understand he spent a lot of time looking down ?????

sneallyk · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 03:41pm

To jicecone

I can chew bubble gum and walk at the same time. What I am really trying to say is you need to use preventative maintenance sometimes when knowing what the count is. How are you going to explain to the coach that you are only keeping the count in your head. I am not trying to say your not good at remembering the count at all times. You might look foolish when your partner (with counter in his hand) and the official scorekeeper both have the same count but is different from what you have. From my 12 years of experience you avoid anything that could lead to an argument.

greymule · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 04:15pm

True, but you might be more accurate without the indicator. When I pitched, did I ever lose track of the count or how many outs there were? No. When I played outfield, did I ever lose track? Many times.

An ump who can get his level of concentration up to that of a pitcher might not be vulnerable to the inevitable mistakes that arise from trusting the indicator.

sneallyk · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 05:05pm

True, but you might be more accurate without the indicator. When I pitched, did I ever lose track of the count or how many outs there were? No. When I played outfield, did I ever lose track? Many times.

An ump who can get his level of concentration up to that of a pitcher might not be vulnerable to the inevitable mistakes that arise from trusting the indicator.

I do understand what your saying Greymule because I pitched a lot too and rarely did lose what the count was. But as an umpire now I've kept the concentration level of a pitcher while at the same time using the counter just like a typewriter by never looking at the keys. You can develope memory with your hands too. I thinks it would be too easy to lose the count whenever there is a pitching change in the middle of a batter or after a prolonged time out.

Tim C · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 07, 2003, 12:45am

"To the guys who don't use a counter, shame on you! It's a tool for umpires that is supposed to hold them accountable for the bucks you are earning. Where would a basketball referee be if he didn't use a whistle because it was too difficult too use. Learn to use the tools of your trade."

I guess, giving you as much leeway as I can, we just see the game differently.

I think one of the funniest things I ever see is to watch a small diamond game with a multiple umpire crew and after every pitch all the heads look down and change thier indiclickercounter. It is very funny.

As I stated I do not remember EVER losing count on the bases . . . a device has never been needed. It is simply a tool and some can work without it.

I respect your right to post your feelings I just have to laugh at "how" you say it and realize that there are a bunch of different types of people that work the game.

I would imagine that you are a "letter of the rules guy" also and NOT an "intent of the rules guy."

We need all types of people working the game.

sneallyk · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 07, 2003, 11:29am

I would imagine that you are a "letter of the rules guy" also and NOT an "intent of the rules guy."

We need all types of people working the game.

Come on guys, a little civility is needed here. Agree to disagree but don't get personal. With 12 years of umping experience, and not just Little League, I do use a lot of preventative skills when calling a game. Don't judge people unless you have seen their work. Just because you are a "senior member" of this bulletin board doesn't mean you know everything about baseball. Boards like these are supposed to be a tool to help fellow umps not as a tool as means of belittling people. I've noticed after a couple of months of observing this board there are a few "senior members" who impose their wills and sarcastic whims on other umps comments. Boards that have a lot bashing can lead to it being used little. A good umpire should not be confrontational and belittling.

jicecone · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 07, 2003, 12:36pm

"Come on guys, a little civility is needed here."

Your absolutely right "Sneallyk" however I think your missing the point that a lot of these Senior Members are trying to get acroos to you.

Don't knock it, until you've tried.

Yes I have made mistakes out there and found out I was wrong, but I suck it up, admit I am wrong and go on. Does this mean I can continue to make the same mistake, Heck NO. I am going to challange myself even more to get it right from then on. That's called learning, experience.

As far as feeling that your being ragged on from this board, belive me they can be tuff. But by golly there is a lot of good knowledge and experience here. Take the time to listen to what is being said. It truly has been a helpful tool to me.