A First Time for Everything

[scarolinablue]

Since I'm up filling out the online ejection form, figured I'd share the first I had tonight - first bench-clearer ever for me in my nine years.

Rivalry, conference game, always some tension in the air with these two teams, but no real issues heading into the 5th inning. Really, just a perfect storm happened - you've all seen the Pete Rose / Ray Fosse highlight - something kind of like that, though the runner wasn't horizontal like Pete, but did lead with the shoulder, so I've got malicious contact there. Then, the catcher rolls over the runner (they were still tangled up on the ground) and shoves him back down - BING! EJ #2, and here come the benches. I backed up and got out my card to begin writing down numbers.

To their credit, the coaching staffs for both teams did a good job keeping things from escalating into a full-blown melee. Neither me from behind the dirt circle nor my partner who had moved between the mound and home saw any other punches thrown or wrestling matches ensue, so we only had the two protagonists to dump. The catcher's coach wanted to suggest his guy was totally innocent - hogwash.

Next half inning, a close play at first got a little chippy, so I hauled the coaches back out to home, they got the message, and we finished up the rest of the game without issue. No handshakes after the game tonight between the teams.

All in all, I think we handled it about as well as we could have - on the drive home I kept trying to think about how I might have been able to pre-empt it, but it really was just one of those things - the perfect storm. Just glad it didn't get worse than it did, and that it settled down after that. Both teams' coaches and AD's actually sought us out and thanked us after the game for handling it as best we could. Don't want to see that again, though.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by scarolinablue

Then, the catcher rolls over the runner (they were still tangled up on the ground) and shoves him back down - BING! EJ #2, and here come the benches. I backed up and got out my card to begin writing down numbers.

To their credit, the coaching staffs for both teams did a good job keeping things from escalating into a full-blown melee. Neither me from behind the dirt circle nor my partner who had moved between the mound and home saw any other punches thrown or wrestling matches ensue, so we only had the two protagonists to dump. The catcher's coach wanted to suggest his guy was totally innocent - hogwash.

I've never been involved with a bench-clearing fight myself, but doesn't 3-3-1q (and it's penalty) state we have to eject any player that leaves the bench in these situations? In fact, 3.3.1OO states "once [a player leaves] their positions and [advances] toward the fight, they were in violation of the rule."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by yawetag

I've never been involved with a bench-clearing fight myself, but doesn't 3-3-1q (and it's penalty) state we have to eject any player that leaves the bench in these situations? In fact, 3.3.1OO states "once [a player leaves] their positions and [advances] toward the fight, they were in violation of the rule."

Yup. Same as in basketball. Go on the court from the bench and you're going to be ejected.

[scarolinablue]

You know, before I made the OP, I had a paragraph in there about applying that rule. Game would have been over, as EVERYBODY was on the field, so everybody would have been ejected. That thought definitely ran through my mind, and we discussed it before bringing the coaches together immediately after the tussle.

For me and my partner last night, it just didn't seem like THAT would have been the proper course of action. Maybe by rule it would have been, but to me, calling the game at that point would have not been right. Maybe you HTBT, it just didn't fit.

[bob jenkins]

It is a HTBT, but one option is to "suspend" the game at that point, write the report and let the state (or conference, or league, or ...) decide whether to resume, or declare a double forfeit, or declare the team ahead the winner,

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It is a HTBT, but one option is to "suspend" the game at that point, write the report and let the state (or conference, or league, or ...) decide whether to resume, or declare a double forfeit, or declare the team ahead the winner,

Bob's exactly right however, in this case (based upon the onfo mentioned), I
think you handled it quite nicely. Had fistacufs ensued, then you would have had to ej more bodies. Bottom line here , you did what you had to, to take control of the game and move on.

Thr rules give us plenty of leeway with penalties. Good officials, understand when to apply them. Good job.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Thr rules give us plenty of leeway with penalties.

They do?

3-3-1q: A ... player ... shall not leave their positions or bench area for the purpose of fighting or physical confrontation.
PENALTY: The umpire shall eject the offender from the game.

3.1.1PP: R1 slides hard into F4. R1 and F4 begin pushing each other. F6 and the on-deck batter run to second base to break up the fight. RULING: All are ejected. Once F6 and the on-deck batter left their positions and advanced toward the fight, they were in violation of the rule.

I see no leeway in the penalty.

[dileonardoja]

Originally Posted by yawetag

They do?

3-3-1q: A ... player ... shall not leave their positions or bench area for the purpose of fighting or physical confrontation.
PENALTY: The umpire shall eject the offender from the game.

3.1.1PP: R1 slides hard into F4. R1 and F4 begin pushing each other. F6 and the on-deck batter run to second base to break up the fight. RULING: All are ejected. Once F6 and the on-deck batter left their positions and advanced toward the fight, they were in violation of the rule.

I see no leeway in the penalty.

Totally agree with Yawetag. No one has presented any rationale why the rule should be ignored. This is a high school game for crying out loud! You want to teach a lesson - eject everyone and let them both forfeit their respective next games. I am not a big fan of FED but sometimes their "special" rules make a lot of sense as in the FPSL (see Swisher break twins F4 leg) and as in this case.

[Rich]

I agree. If the players participated in a fight, they're all ejected. Let the state or other governing body sort it all out after the fact.

In a state where automatic suspensions follow, the teams that follow these teams on the schedule have a legitimate gripe when "by rule" ejections are not enforced.

[greymule]

Hold on . . .

. . . shall not leave their positions or bench area for the purpose of fighting or physical confrontation

. . . F6 and the on-deck batter run to second base to break up the fight

How does trying to stop the fight qualify as fighting or physical confrontation? Or else the first wording above should be recast to say "and advance toward the fight."

[jicecone]

Guaranteed, absoultely, as sure as my fingers pass over these keys to type I could attend each and every game you guys officiate and find some rule violation that you have overlooked, choose to ignor or just plan missed.

The op said "Neither me from behind the dirt circle nor my partner who had moved between the mound and home saw any other punches thrown or wrestling matches ensue, so we only had the two protagonists to dump"

So lets not get so technical for a job well done.

Your probably going to try and convince me next that every time you go over the speed limit you turn yourself in at the nearest local police station too.

The rules are there to cover most if not all scenarios of the game and establish a guideline and a level of fair play. The fact that discretion and judgement of the official is a big part of the rules, is and will alway be the leeway necessary to bring about fair play and game control. For this case I believe the officials did a good job.

[greymule]

"The fact that discretion and judgement of the official is a big part of the rules, is and will always be the leeway necessary to bring about fair play and game control. For this case I believe the officials did a good job."

I agree. Attempting to enforce an absolute, letter-of-the-law rule for everything that happens invariably produces injustices.

Baseball used to rely more on the ump as "God." Yes, there were rules, but there were also times when the ump simply made a decision, and that was that.

It reminds me of a recent article I read about British versus French law, where historically the British leaned more toward laying down general principles and trusting their judges to apply them properly and fairly. The French, on the other hand, tried to cover every possible contingency with a law.

[greymule]

You're probably going to try to convince me next that every time you go over the speed limit, you should turn yourself in at the nearest local police station, too.

Anybody seen that TV commercial in which, during a time out, the basketball player confesses to his coach and team that despite the ref's call, it should be the other team's ball? The coach praises the kid, who promptly approaches the official to make things right and fair.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by jicecone

The op said "Neither me from behind the dirt circle nor my partner who had moved between the mound and home saw any other punches thrown or wrestling matches ensue, so we only had the two protagonists to dump"

I will admit that the OP didn't state, but implied, that the benches cleared.

Originally Posted by jicecone

The rules are there to cover most if not all scenarios of the game and establish a guideline and a level of fair play. The fact that discretion and judgement of the official is a big part of the rules, is and will alway be the leeway necessary to bring about fair play and game control. For this case I believe the officials did a good job.

I agree that the rules allow leeway in a lot of areas. It's even up to you to determine MC for ejection. However, leaving the bench during a fight is not one of them. The rules prescribe all players that leave their fielding position or the bench area are to be ejected. There is no leeway.

Do I think the umpires handled the situation well? Sure. They calmed the game down after the fact. However, their application of the rules was incorrect.

[scarolinablue]

Originally Posted by yawetag

I will admit that the OP didn't state, but implied, that the benches cleared.


I agree that the rules allow leeway in a lot of areas. It's even up to you to determine MC for ejection. However, leaving the bench during a fight is not one of them. The rules prescribe all players that leave their fielding position or the bench area are to be ejected. There is no leeway.

Do I think the umpires handled the situation well? Sure. They calmed the game down after the fact. However, their application of the rules was incorrect.

I believe you stated you'd never had a bench-clearing situation. Since I've now had one, I'll speak from my vast experience - I think dumping both entire teams, while correct by rule, would have been a misapplication in this instance. HTBT, for sure. Let me know what you do when it happens to you. I'd seriously like to know if this has ever been applied in this manner. I've never heard of it. I've heard of games suspended due to conflicts, but never entire teams ejected. Never.

I'll agree with what the rule says. I'll agree that, by rule, we misapplied the rule. I also agree that bench-clearing incidents have no place at all in HS baseball. I disagree, however, that dumping two teams in entirety would be correct, so therefore, I disagree with the rule as written.

First, our state has an automatic two-game suspension for any player that is ejected. I can see them upholding these suspensions for the two players involved in this incident (or any others engaged in fighting - believe me, I would have dumped anybody observed throwing a punch, shove, or elbow) - under zero circumstances can I see them upholding the forfeiture of the next two games for these two teams. It just would not happen.

I'd really like to hear from those who've had these situations, and how they handled them. Otherwise, I'm about fed up with those of you who'd say "by rule, the whole team has to go. An example needs to be set." By the book, you're right. In reality, I don't think it would happen - not by any of you. Maybe I'm wrong - prove it.