Help me win a bet - Page 2

Rich Ives · #16 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 20, 2011, 09:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Has anyone ever seen this play occur at a level beyond tee ball? In over 30 years of umpiring, I have never seen the BR miss first base on this play.

Enjoy your season and be safe.

Only 30 years. That explains it. Either that or you missed seeing me miss first in a Legion game in 1961. (Made it back before the defense caught on too)

dileonardoja · #17 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 20, 2011, 10:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

This brings up a good point that I meant to mention earlier. The general interp is that the runner hasn't passed the base until he's entirely (trailing foot) past the base.

Interesting! So hypothetically the lead foot passes the bag, then the throw is caught, then the trail foot steps over the bag (missing it). The signal is Out?

dash_riprock · #18 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 20, 2011, 10:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by dileonardoja

Interesting! So hypothetically the lead foot passes the bag, then the throw is caught, then the trail foot steps over the bag (missing it). The signal is Out?

Correct. The B/R has not yet acquired the base so the play at 1st is not an appeal.

MikeStrybel · #19 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 20, 2011, 10:22am

I guess I work games where the base coaches are actually aware of what is happening. In all my years, I have never witnessed a player run by first base and the coach didn't yell for him to touch it. The closest I ever came was when the shortstop hung the firstbaseman out down the line. The two collided and the BR rolled past the base and into foul territory. sure enough, the first base coach was screaming for him to collect himself and hit the bag before the pitcher, who had by now recovered the ball, tagged him. He did and I was deprived of another example of our crazy game at work.

Clouds and 40 for the first game this Wednesday...up from the original 38 forecast. Break out the sunblock!

mbyron · #20 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 20, 2011, 11:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BK47

Why couldnt you just call him out on the first time by with emphasis just as you would call him safe if F3 had a pulled foot? Or is it more like calling a Runner "Safe" when advancing to a base even though he left early, or missed a base in between, then upon proper appeal from the defense calling him "Out"?

As others have answered, it's more like your second case. The reason stems from the BR's right to overrun 1B. The runner acquires the base legally by touching it, but he is treated as having acquired it when he passes the base (just as in other missed base appeals) until properly appealed by the defense.

But in the meantime, everyone on the field is expecting a ruling on whether the throw beat the runner. To stand there doing nothing (as we do for a play at the plate) gives the defense an unfair advantage, since the BR is 15 feet or more from the base he missed.

So we signal "safe" when the BR beats the throw to signal just that. If the defense says "But he missed the base!" and just stand there, then I tell them they can appeal that.

I've looked in the FED books and find nothing about this mechanic. It's a pro mechanic, and as far as I know it's the only one in wide use.

Rich Ives · #21 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 20, 2011, 11:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

In all my years, I have never witnessed a player run by first base and the coach didn't yell for him to touch it. !

Darn -we need to train the coaches better. Why alert the defense to the miss?

DG · #22 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 20, 2011, 12:42pm

In a game last year we had a BR miss 1b on a HR ball. I was PU and watching the ball down the LF line, clearly fair. Afterwards the defense appealed and BU called him out. I asked after game how bad he missed and he said 2 feet. 1b coach did not tell him to come back.

It was the home team's batter in the 5th inning and game end up going extra innings and home team lost in the 8th.

yawetag · #23 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 20, 2011, 09:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Clouds and 40 for the first game this Wednesday...up from the original 38 forecast. Break out the sunblock!

Sunny and 68 for me on Wednesday. I've already placed my bulk order of ice.

JJ · #24 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 24, 2011, 09:02pm

So if the BR passes 1B without touching, then the throw arrives to the base, then the BR returns to 1B, then the defense appeals he missed it the first time, the BR is safe?
It's such a complicated game...

JJ

PS Flurries and 39 here all weekend for my "home" opener....I got really spoiled doing my first 30 games in Florida...."Honey, where did I pack my long underwear last Fall?"...

MikeStrybel · #25 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 24, 2011, 10:10pm

JJ,
My first week was snowed out so I'm going to bed dreaming of a beach and a bottle of rum. Off to Spring Break in St. Thomas in the morning.

To my baseball brethren, I wish you well this week and hope you stay safe out there. Thanks for the great discussions this week - esepcially when we disagree. Those ones make me a better umpire and that's the goal.

dash_riprock · #26 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 24, 2011, 10:59pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ

So if the BR passes 1B without touching, then the throw arrives to the base, then the BR returns to 1B, then the defense appeals he missed it the first time, the BR is safe?

Yes. He corrected the miss before the appeal.

MrUmpire · #27 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 24, 2011, 11:06pm

Did you win the bet?

David M · #28 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 25, 2011, 08:39am

What is required if both the 1st baseman and the runner realize the base was missed, does it require a tag of the runner while off the base or the base while the runner is off the base?

bob jenkins · #29 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 25, 2011, 11:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by David M

What is required if both the 1st baseman and the runner realize the base was missed, does it require a tag of the runner while off the base or the base while the runner is off the base?

I think FED specifically says that if the runner is trying to return, then the runner must be tagged. In this case, I'd apply that only if the runner is "actively" trying to get to the base. If he's just strolling back as after most overruns of first, I'd allow the base to be tagged.

Chris Viverito · #30 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 25, 2011, 12:18pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think FED specifically says that if the runner is trying to return, then the runner must be tagged. In this case, I'd apply that only if the runner is "actively" trying to get to the base. If he's just strolling back as after most overruns of first, I'd allow the base to be tagged.

If that's written I see what you are getting at. An unwritten speed-up rule.

Seems odd the FED would make such a distinction. If they do I wonder what is the purpose? I'm thinking get the out either way if the appeal was proper - bag or runner.

FED appeals are pretty lax...

8-2-5 Penalty (Art 1 - 5) "A live ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early".

We can get it from a verbal appeal shouted from the dugout...we can get it if they tag the base.

Does that help muddy the winner of the bet?