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-   -   Joyce misses one (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/58286-joyce-misses-one.html)

johnnyg08 Wed Jun 02, 2010 07:52pm

Joyce misses one
 
We all miss 'em...but man...that's tough.

tjones1 Wed Jun 02, 2010 07:57pm

I'm just hearing about it... very tough.

jicecone Wed Jun 02, 2010 07:57pm

Yea I know, Peter missed one the other day too.

KJUmp Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:00pm

I only saw the replay from one angle, foul side of first. Was there any other replay that showed a bobble or something else weird?
Did Leyland argue?

tjones1 Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJUmp (Post 679774)
I only saw the replay from one angle, foul side of first. Was there any other replay that showed a bobble or something else weird?
Did Leyland argue?

I don't think Leyland argued until after the game.

comical Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:09pm

Leyland came out after the play and talked relatively calmly (at least that's how it looked to me). After the game, however, he came out and let Joyce have it. Some of the Tiger players were out there as well. And after the play but while the game was going on, Miguel Cabrera was clearly letting Joyce know what he thought.

qcumpire Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:14pm

Wow! Can you say Don Denkinger? That was so obviously an out, he wouldn't even have had to sell it.

jimpiano Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by comical (Post 679777)
Leyland came out after the play and talked relatively calmly (at least that's how it looked to me). After the game, however, he came out and let Joyce have it. Some of the Tiger players were out there as well. And after the play but while the game was going on, Miguel Cabrera was clearly letting Joyce know what he thought.

By the end of the game the entire Tiger bench had seen the replay.
Joyce got slammed and deservedly so.
How can anyone blow a call that obvious under those conditions?
What an embarrassment to MLB.
The calls for replay will now reach a crescendo.
Joyce's fifteen minutes of fame will now be a week of infamy.

grunewar Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:18pm

For those that may have missed it....
 
here's one angle.

Cleveland Indians vs. Detroit Tigers - Recap - June 02, 2010 - ESPN

Jurassic Referee Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:18pm

You have to admire Galarraga's composure after losing a perfect game that way. Showed a lot of class imo.

johnnyg08 Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 679782)
You have to admire Galarraga's composure after losing a perfect game that way. Showed a lot of class imo.

yes indeed. he could've blown a gasket

RogersUmp Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:22pm

Position.
 
I don't think he had a good angle. He was still on the line.

RogersUmp Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:25pm

Leyland
 
Leyland let him have it on the field after the game but he was moreunderstanding in the post game...human element that is part of the game. Called Joyce a very, very good umpire.

Kevin Finnerty Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:28pm

We could have had two perfect games in a week and three in a month. Nice job of altering history. Thanks for busting to get a good angle with a guy's once-in-a-lifetime achievement on the line.

Sleep tight.

johnnyg08 Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:30pm

Yeah, it will make history for the wrong reasons though.

LeeBallanfant Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:32pm

While not mitigating the blown call, Cabrera should be last guy to argue. Looking a replay ball was directly hit at 2B Carlos Guillen and if Cabrera stays put it is a routine 4-3.

Stu Clary Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:34pm

Our association meets tonight. I'm guessing this call might become an unofficial topic of discussion.

johnnyg08 Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Clary (Post 679792)
Our association meets tonight. I'm guessing this call might become an unofficial topic of discussion.

What's going on the other 55 minutes? :D

qcumpire Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:37pm

At the risk of being abused by my fellow officials for supporting instant replay. I am watching the Stanley Cup Finals and there was a replay that awarded a goal correctly. This is an example of how instant replay can work(only at the major league level). I say give the Major league managers one challenge during a game. If they are wrong on the challenge, they go bye-bye. :D

jimpiano Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant (Post 679791)
While not mitigating the blown call, Cabrera should be last guy to argue. Looking a replay ball was directly hit at 2B Carlos Guillen and if Cabrera stays put it is a routine 4-3.

Say what?
That was pretty stupid.

qcumpire Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimpiano (Post 679795)
Say what?
That was pretty stupid.

You took the words right out of my mouth. :confused:

robbie Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:46pm

Um - watch the replay again. Good call. My son and I both instantly said "out" when seeing the first shot in real time. However, we both just as quickly said "wow - good call" when seeing the other angle slow motion replay. First baseman did not have control.

Nevadaref Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:49pm

I'm not a baseball umpire. I frequent two other forums on this board.

I would like the opinions of the experts here on these points:

1. The ball was not caught cleanly. It hits the heel of the glove and rolls forward to the fingertips. You can see it at the tip of the glove and then Galarraga flips his wrist to roll it in more securely after the call is made. I wonder if the umpire had him bobbling the ball. Will the pitcher say that he didn't quite have control? (ESPN phone interview with him right now! Galarraga says he does know what the umpire saw. Didn't mention a bobble. He said that he did speak with Joyce after the game.)

2. Due to the manner in which the ball was caught, there probably wasn't a solid pop sound made when the throw reached the glove, plus the crowd would have been fairly loud. I'm told that on close plays at 1st the umpires sometimes watch for the foot hitting the base and listen for the ball hitting the glove. The lack of a pop sound could have tricked Joyce.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee (Post 679782)
You have to admire Galarraga's composure after losing a perfect game that way. Showed a lot of class imo.

He turned gave a wry smile and let it go. He was very classy.

tarheelcoach Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:50pm

Joyce went into the Tiger clubhouse immediately after seeing the replay and apologized to Galaragga - I guess he was pretty sure he missed it.

Both guys are class acts for how they handled things.

BaBa Booey Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty (Post 679788)
We could have had two perfect games in a week and three in a month. Nice job of altering history. Thanks for busting to get a good angle with a guy's once-in-a-lifetime achievement on the line.

Sleep tight.

He had the right angle. With a pitching coming over to cover, you only want to be a step or two off the line, which in this case also happens to be 90 degrees from the origin of the throw.

scarolinablue Wed Jun 02, 2010 08:57pm

For those of you defending the call, please stop. There was no "lack of control" evident, anywhere. He blew it, plain and simple, and robbed the kid of a perfecto. I'm even an Indians fan (yes, I admitted it).

Steven Tyler Wed Jun 02, 2010 09:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaBa Booey (Post 679800)
He had the right angle. With a pitching coming over to cover, you only want to be a step or two off the line, which in this case also happens to be 90 degrees from the origin of the throw.

Don't pay any attention to Finnerty. All he does is rip on MLB umpires every time he gets a chance.

Hell, he doesn't even know the proper positioning on a play like the one being discussed.

I suspect he is a rat in sheep's clothing.

Steven Tyler Wed Jun 02, 2010 09:09pm

Joyce admitted to missing the call in an interview.

Said he, "I just cost that kid a perfect game".

jimpiano Wed Jun 02, 2010 09:10pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbie (Post 679797)
Um - watch the replay again. Good call. My son and I both instantly said "out" when seeing the first shot in real time. However, we both just as quickly said "wow - good call" when seeing the other angle slow motion replay. First baseman did not have control.

What does it say about you and your son's judgement who both missed the PITCHER catching the ball?

qcumpire Wed Jun 02, 2010 09:11pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarheelcoach (Post 679799)
Joyce went into the Tiger clubhouse immediately after seeing the replay and apologized to Galaragga - I guess he was pretty sure he missed it.

Both guys are class acts for how they handled things.

Reminds me of Richie Garcia in the 1996 playoffs. By the way, Am I the only one that thinks Joyce looks like Goose Gossage with the mustache?

Jurassic Referee Wed Jun 02, 2010 09:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbie (Post 679797)
Um - watch the replay again. Good call. My son and I both instantly said "out" when seeing the first shot in real time. However, we both just as quickly said "wow - good call" when seeing the other angle slow motion replay. First baseman did not have control.

Gee, even Jim Joyce doesn't agree with you.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/spor...fect-game.html



But thanks for playing.....:D

jimpiano Wed Jun 02, 2010 09:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 679798)
I'm not a baseball umpire. I frequent two other forums on this board.

I would like the opinions of the experts here on these points:

1. The ball was not caught cleanly. It hits the heel of the glove and rolls forward to the fingertips. You can see it at the tip of the glove and then Galarraga flips his wrist to roll it in more securely after the call is made. I wonder if the umpire had him bobbling the ball. Will the pitcher say that he didn't quite have control? (ESPN phone interview with him right now! Galarraga says he does know what the umpire saw. Didn't mention a bobble. He said that he did speak with Joyce after the game.)

2. Due to the manner in which the ball was caught, there probably wasn't a solid pop sound made when the throw reached the glove, plus the crowd would have been fairly loud. I'm told that on close plays at 1st the umpires sometimes watch for the foot hitting the base and listen for the ball hitting the glove. The lack of a pop sound could have tricked Joyce.


He turned gave a wry smile and let it go. He was very classy.

Since the umpire apologized to the Tigers for missing the call your questions are moot.

David B Wed Jun 02, 2010 09:17pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 679798)
I'm not a baseball umpire. I frequent two other forums on this board.

I would like the opinions of the experts here on these points:

1. The ball was not caught cleanly. It hits the heel of the glove and rolls forward to the fingertips. You can see it at the tip of the glove and then Galarraga flips his wrist to roll it in more securely after the call is made. I wonder if the umpire had him bobbling the ball. Will the pitcher say that he didn't quite have control? (ESPN phone interview with him right now! Galarraga says he does know what the umpire saw. Didn't mention a bobble. He said that he did speak with Joyce after the game.)

2. Due to the manner in which the ball was caught, there probably wasn't a solid pop sound made when the throw reached the glove, plus the crowd would have been fairly loud. I'm told that on close plays at 1st the umpires sometimes watch for the foot hitting the base and listen for the ball hitting the glove. The lack of a pop sound could have tricked Joyce.


He turned gave a wry smile and let it go. He was very classy.

Not from what I heard, he said that he simply thought the runner "beat the throw" so he did not and probably could not have seen the bobble from his angle.

This is a tough call because you don't have the best angle, I would think he would have moved a step or so more to his right, but I've also seen MLB guys stay right on the line for this type of throw.

Bottom line, in this type of situation, the umpire should give any doubt to the pitcher, just as you will with a Derek Jeter type throw at ss when he's in left field or a third baseman making a great bare handed throw on the run.

I feel for the guy, he's not going to be able to live that one down for a while.

Thansk
David

bainsey Wed Jun 02, 2010 09:34pm

I'm not a baseball umpire, either, but may I ask this question?

If Mr. Joyce felt that the ball was not caught cleanly, could the official scorebook be changed to E1, thereby becoming a no-hitter?

jimpiano Wed Jun 02, 2010 09:35pm

“I just cost that kid a perfect game,” Joyce said. “I thought he beat the throw. I was convinced he beat the throw, until I saw the replay.”

“It was the biggest call of my career,” said Joyce, who became a full-time major league umpire in 1989.

johnnyg08 Wed Jun 02, 2010 09:40pm

Is there another game there tomorrow? He's got the dish. Should be interesting if they're in Detroit.

comical Wed Jun 02, 2010 09:48pm

Detroit plays Cleveland again. I think it's a 1:05 Eastern start in Detroit.

Nevadaref Wed Jun 02, 2010 09:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimpiano (Post 679813)
“I just cost that kid a perfect game,” Joyce said. “I thought he beat the throw. I was convinced he beat the throw, until I saw the replay.”

“It was the biggest call of my career,” said Joyce, who became a full-time major league umpire in 1989.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimpiano (Post 679809)
Since the umpire apologized to the Tigers for missing the call your questions are moot.

Sorry, Jim, but in light of these comments from the umpire my 2nd question certainly is NOT moot.

rpumpire Wed Jun 02, 2010 09:54pm

So, if you're MLB, do you rush in a replacement (as they do for doubleheaders) and give Joyce they day off tomorrow, or does he get "back on the horse" and face the hostile crowd?

KJUmp Wed Jun 02, 2010 09:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimpiano (Post 679809)
Since the umpire apologized to the Tigers for missing the call your questions are moot.

And if Nevada had that particular bit of information available to him, he would not have taken the time to ask the questions he did in his coherent well written post now would he?
It's easy to be the smartest guy in the room when you already have the answers in advance.

tjones1 Wed Jun 02, 2010 09:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpumpire (Post 679822)
So, if you're MLB, do you rush in a replacement (as they do for doubleheaders) and give Joyce they day off tomorrow, or does he get "back on the horse" and face the hostile crowd?

He'll be working tomorrow.

robbie Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:07pm

I give Joyce credit for not using the replay to say that he thought it was a bobble called safe. He stood by what led him to his call (incorrectly thinking that the throw beat the runner.) However, that doesn't negate the fact that it was a bobble. Pretty clear in the video referenced earlier in this thread.

If the call were "out" and it cost a victory, everyone would point to the bobble and scream for blood. Just because the call cost a piece of history, you dont give it the ol' in the neighborhood, or close enough call.

rpumpire Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:07pm

From mlb.com:

"I just cost that kid a perfect game," Joyce said. "I thought he beat the throw. I was convinced he beat the throw, until I saw the replay. It was the biggest call of my career."

Galarraga said he gave Joyce a hug when Joyce apologized to him after the game.

"He really feels bad," Galarraga said. "He probably feels more bad than me. Nobody is perfect. I give a lot of credit to that guy. That (an apology) doesn't happen. He apologized. He feels really bad. Nobody is perfect. What am I gonna do? His body language said more than a lot of words. His eyes were watery, he didn't have too say much. His body language said a lot."

Galarraga retired Trevor Crowe to preserve the shutout, but Tigers players Gerald Laird and Jeremy Bonderman took a detour from the postgame celebration to have words with Joyce, as did manager Jim Leyland.

"That's the nature of the business, that's just the way it is. The players are human, the umpires are human, the managers are human, the writers are human," Leyland said. "We all make mistakes. It's a crying shame. Jimmy's a real good umpire, has been for a long time. He probably got it wrong."

----------

Joyce and Galarraga both showed tons of class in the way they handled an unfortunate situation.

DG Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by qcumpire (Post 679794)
At the risk of being abused by my fellow officials for supporting instant replay. I am watching the Stanley Cup Finals and there was a replay that awarded a goal correctly. This is an example of how instant replay can work(only at the major league level). I say give the Major league managers one challenge during a game. If they are wrong on the challenge, they go bye-bye. :D

I think this will generate substantial discussion about additional instant replay. We already have for border HR calls. This would certainly fall into a category of potentially reviewable. My goodness, a perfect game gone on the last out.

Nevadaref Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbie (Post 679832)
I give Joyce credit for not using the replay to say that he thought it was a bobble called safe. He stood by what led him to his call (incorrectly thinking that the throw beat the runner.) However, that doesn't negate the fact that it was a bobble. Pretty clear in the video referenced earlier in this thread.

If the call were "out" and it cost a victory, everyone would point to the bobble and scream for blood. Just because the call cost a piece of history, you dont give it the ol' in the neighborhood, or close enough call.

Paging Mr. Freud... :D

KMBReferee Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:33pm

I just hope this doesn't affect Joyce for the rest of his MLB career. Situations like this will dog a pro official for years, especially now in the ESPN-era, where they talk about this 24 hrs/day for the next week. In fact, every time Joyce makes a call from here on out they'll probably show a clip of tonight.

My thoughts are with him and his family. There's no telling what kind of idiots are out there ready to harass him where ever he goes. All sports officials need to step up and have this guy's back.

Kevin Finnerty Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler (Post 679802)
Don't pay any attention to Finnerty. All he does is rip on MLB umpires every time he gets a chance.

Hell, he doesn't even know the proper positioning on a play like the one being discussed.

I suspect he is a rat in sheep's clothing.

And you're little more than a blind apologist and cheap shot artist.

More nice work.

johnnyg08 Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:03pm

Watch the replay again...in slow motion if you can...Joyce was going to bang him out.

I just watched the replay again on Baseball Tonight...he was going to punch him out.

To decrease the drama...yes, I agree with Mr. Joyce that he missed the call. Just for discussion...anybody else see him ready to punch him out then safe him?

Nevadaref Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:05pm

Again I don't work baseball, so this is coming from an official of other sports, but I'm looking for the opinion of you baseball guys on whether or not it would be acceptable on a play like this to go to Mr. 2nd Base Umpire and Mr. Home Plate Umpire and ask, "What did you see?"
The answers could generate: "Hmmmm... both of you think that I kicked it... Well, I thought that I was sure, but perhaps I should change that."
I didn't see any conference or even a conversation with another umpire take place, so I believe that there wasn't one. In hindsight we know that such could have saved Mr. Joyce much grief.

Obviously, I know that officials can go to partners for help on plays, but there are also certain plays where it just isn't appropriate due to the coverage area or look that other officials would have. Credibility concerns factor into this. So on a play like this at 1st what is the line of thinking of a baseball crew? Should he ask for help after the manager complains? Should help be offered from the 2B guy given the circumstances under which the play occurred? I can't imagine that unsolicited help would be welcome except for the most extreme cases. So from a baseball perspective, what's the scoop?

Nevadaref Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyg08 (Post 679854)
Watch the replay again...in slow motion if you can...Joyce was going to bang him out.

I just watched the replay again on Baseball Tonight...he was going to punch him out.

To decrease the drama...yes, I agree with Mr. Joyce that he missed the call. Just for discussion...anybody else see him ready to punch him out then safe him?

I don't see that from Joyce, but I do see a really interesting reaction from the Cleveland player after being called safe.

johnnyg08 Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:24pm

If you watch it he was getting ready to punch him. Obviously it doesn't matter, but he was going to punch him...watch his hands.

umpjim Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:25pm

U1 was ready to call the out until the firstbaseman under threw the ball and made the F1 hestitate. The ump blew the call because the the firstbaseman didn't shuffle the ball and lead the pitcher. Once you have got to watch a lot of things (that means more than one) you might miss something. It's all on 1B who ragged on the ump the most. He knew he FU'd the play. The ump blew it but the 1B throw made it all possible. That's a routine out when done properly but it's on 1B. They know we are human so when a close one goes against them when they did not do it right it's on them. eg: the ball beats the runner and if the tag goes to the bag you got an out but what does the fielder tag, the hip. What u got? OR, Instant replay.

mrm21711 Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:48pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyg08 (Post 679854)

anybody else see him ready to punch him out then safe him?

Yep - pretty clear to me too

SethPDX Thu Jun 03, 2010 01:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 679855)
Again I don't work baseball, so this is coming from an official of other sports, but I'm looking for the opinion of you baseball guys on whether or not it would be acceptable on a play like this to go to Mr. 2nd Base Umpire and Mr. Home Plate Umpire and ask, "What did you see?"
The answers could generate: "Hmmmm... both of you think that I kicked it... Well, I thought that I was sure, but perhaps I should change that."
I didn't see any conference or even a conversation with another umpire take place, so I believe that there wasn't one. In hindsight we know that such could have saved Mr. Joyce much grief.

Obviously, I know that officials can go to partners for help on plays, but there are also certain plays where it just isn't appropriate due to the coverage area or look that other officials would have. Credibility concerns factor into this. So on a play like this at 1st what is the line of thinking of a baseball crew? Should he ask for help after the manager complains? Should help be offered from the 2B guy given the circumstances under which the play occurred? I can't imagine that unsolicited help would be welcome except for the most extreme cases. So from a baseball perspective, what's the scoop?

In baseball we do not reverse a judgement call our partner made. We only offer our opinion to our partner if specifically asked. The umpire who made the original call can then choose to change the call based on the new information he has.

I don't like to say "never," but I simply can't imagine a professional crew getting together on a play like this. There are very rare times when the 1BU might ask the PU for help on a play at 1B but this play was not one of them. This is going to be the 1BU's call all the way and he is not going to change it.

Nevadaref Thu Jun 03, 2010 02:17am

This may not be a popular sentiment, but what if the crew chief had taken the extraordinary step of going to the video replay despite the rules stating that this isn't a reviewable play? Basically, given the circumstances, just do it anyway and say the heck with it.

He could learn two things:
1. the 1BU got the call right. Then he knows that they didn't ruin a perfect game, and he takes a fine or a couple game suspension. Given the circumstances, he would be likely to get a great deal of support from the players, managers, fans, and analysts. It might even lead to a rule change.

2. the 1BU kicked the call. The change could be made with certainty and instead of the 1BU getting blasted and possibly ruining his career, the focus would be on the controversial use of the video replay, which would likely be applauded by all involved. (I've seen D1 basketball officials go to the courtside monitor for things which aren't permitted by rule, and I've never heard of one of them being punished for it.) I can't imagine that Cleveland would protest and try to have the perfect game nixed. The bad PR would be overwhelming. The rule would also likely be modified somehow, perhaps by including a safe or out call which would end a game.

grunewar Thu Jun 03, 2010 05:29am

Some interesting comments from all involved
 
Leyland said the umpire's call was part of the "human element of the game" and did not think it constituted a case for the use of replay.

"I'm sure somebody is going to say, 'if we had replay on that play, that kid would have a perfect game.' Somebody will say something about that, but not me," Leyland said. "That's the human element. Umpires do a great job. There's no question about that. They're a whole lot right more than they are wrong. They make some unbelievable calls on bang-bang plays."

Entire article is at:

Missed call leaves Detroit's Armando Galarraga one out shy of perfect game - Daily Pitch: MLB News, Standings, Schedules & More - USATODAY.com

asdf Thu Jun 03, 2010 06:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 679855)
Again I don't work baseball, so this is coming from an official of other sports, but I'm looking for the opinion of you baseball guys on whether or not it would be acceptable on a play like this to go to Mr. 2nd Base Umpire and Mr. Home Plate Umpire and ask, "What did you see?"
The answers could generate: "Hmmmm... both of you think that I kicked it... Well, I thought that I was sure, but perhaps I should change that."
I didn't see any conference or even a conversation with another umpire take place, so I believe that there wasn't one. In hindsight we know that such could have saved Mr. Joyce much grief.

Obviously, I know that officials can go to partners for help on plays, but there are also certain plays where it just isn't appropriate due to the coverage area or look that other officials would have. Credibility concerns factor into this. So on a play like this at 1st what is the line of thinking of a baseball crew? Should he ask for help after the manager complains? Should help be offered from the 2B guy given the circumstances under which the play occurred? I can't imagine that unsolicited help would be welcome except for the most extreme cases. So from a baseball perspective, what's the scoop?

Never gonna happen....

It's no different than if you are the Trail official and miss an obvious travel out top, in your primary, during the last seconds of a tied State Championship game. The missed call leads to a game winning basket.

You are not going to confer with your Center or your Lead in this situation. Nor are they going to come to you.

You just live or die with the call.

It's unfortunate, but bad things happen to good people........This situation proves it....all the way around.

rbmartin Thu Jun 03, 2010 06:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by KMBReferee (Post 679845)
I just hope this doesn't affect Joyce for the rest of his MLB career. Situations like this will dog a pro official for years, especially now in the ESPN-era, where they talk about this 24 hrs/day for the next week. In fact, every time Joyce makes a call from here on out they'll probably show a clip of tonight.

My thoughts are with him and his family. There's no telling what kind of idiots are out there ready to harass him where ever he goes. All sports officials need to step up and have this guy's back.

Then he should find a new line of work other than professional sports.
Mistakes haunt people all the time. Bill Buckner, Jackie Smith, Leon Lett.
Along with that fat paycheck comes some additional scrutiny should you be unfortunate or incompetent enough to make a highly visible mistake in a highly publicized situation.

BK47 Thu Jun 03, 2010 06:40am

and whats even worse is JJ made it all about him by saying "Thats the worst call of MY career".

MD Longhorn Thu Jun 03, 2010 06:54am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 679885)
This may not be a popular sentiment, but what if the crew chief had taken the extraordinary step of going to the video replay despite the rules stating that this isn't a reviewable play? Basically, given the circumstances, just do it anyway and say the heck with it.

He could learn two things:
1. the 1BU got the call right. Then he knows that they didn't ruin a perfect game, and he takes a fine or a couple game suspension. Given the circumstances, he would be likely to get a great deal of support from the players, managers, fans, and analysts. It might even lead to a rule change.

2. the 1BU kicked the call. The change could be made with certainty and instead of the 1BU getting blasted and possibly ruining his career, the focus would be on the controversial use of the video replay, which would likely be applauded by all involved. (I've seen D1 basketball officials go to the courtside monitor for things which aren't permitted by rule, and I've never heard of one of them being punished for it.) I can't imagine that Cleveland would protest and try to have the perfect game nixed. The bad PR would be overwhelming. The rule would also likely be modified somehow, perhaps by including a safe or out call which would end a game.

Well, first off, he'd likely lose his job... and second, it would be protestable. MLB rules are very clear about what's allowed and what's not. This would be no different than an umpire going to ask a fan what they saw and changing his call accordingly.

Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. Thu Jun 03, 2010 07:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant (Post 679791)
While not mitigating the blown call, Cabrera should be last guy to argue. Looking a replay ball was directly hit at 2B Carlos Guillen and if Cabrera stays put it is a routine 4-3.


Lee:

Mark, Jr., and I think you for your astute observation. As some people on this Forum know, I am the father of two first basemen (Andy, still in H.S., and MTD, Jr., who now umpires H.S. baseball).

MTD, Jr., and I still are of the opinion that F1 did not have control of the throw until after he pulled his foot off of 1B, but MTD, Jr., also made the following comment after watching the replay: "The gods of baseball got it right. F3 had no business fielding the ball. This should have been a routine 4-3 ground out, with the B/R being out by a mile."

By the way Jim Joyce is a NW Ohio boy, having graduated for Toledo (Ohio) Central Catholic H.S. and Bowling Green (Ohio) State Univ.; he played baseball at both schools. He now livesi in Oregon, Ohio, an eastern suburb of Toledo. I do not recall ever meeting him because he was in the Majors before I moved to Toledo.

MTD, Sr.

LMan Thu Jun 03, 2010 08:07am

Will Selig or Tigers official scorer retroactively rule the play an error?


:eek:

APG Thu Jun 03, 2010 08:22am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref (Post 679885)
This may not be a popular sentiment, but what if the crew chief had taken the extraordinary step of going to the video replay despite the rules stating that this isn't a reviewable play? Basically, given the circumstances, just do it anyway and say the heck with it.

He could learn two things:
1. the 1BU got the call right. Then he knows that they didn't ruin a perfect game, and he takes a fine or a couple game suspension. Given the circumstances, he would be likely to get a great deal of support from the players, managers, fans, and analysts. It might even lead to a rule change.

2. the 1BU kicked the call. The change could be made with certainty and instead of the 1BU getting blasted and possibly ruining his career, the focus would be on the controversial use of the video replay, which would likely be applauded by all involved. (I've seen D1 basketball officials go to the courtside monitor for things which aren't permitted by rule, and I've never heard of one of them being punished for it.) I can't imagine that Cleveland would protest and try to have the perfect game nixed. The bad PR would be overwhelming. The rule would also likely be modified somehow, perhaps by including a safe or out call which would end a game.

Basketball official here...I'm a bit surprised that you would advocate this route. You are usually one who is a stickler for following the rules.

Already hearing about it on sports talk radio and ESPN non stop. Many think this will be THE impetus for expanding replay (and if they did it, I would totally be in favor for it). Even heard calls for Bud Selig to retroactively declare the out and award the perfect game. I find that one a little less likely to happen.

DLH17 Thu Jun 03, 2010 08:23am

I was impressed with Joyce's decision to admit he made a mistake on that call. Hopefully, this does not damage his career too much, if at all.

Leyland's comment about Joyce during his post game interview were classy and might help soften a lot of potential impact to Joyce.

cviverito Thu Jun 03, 2010 08:25am

I watched the vid but did not see a 'juggle' angle. Anybody got that one? Either way it matters not because, as we all know, Joyce thought the runner beat it.

I do see him begin to wind-up for the punch...but I give him credit for calling what his brain had instead of what his heart wanted.

mbyron Thu Jun 03, 2010 08:31am

There was no bobble. F1 caught the ball in the webbing while in contact with the base. As he came off the base, the ball slipped deeper into the glove. Not a bobble.

The ESPN video I saw shows the play.

jimpiano Thu Jun 03, 2010 08:32am

MTD, Sr.[/QUOTE]

God, what total bullcrap.
The first baseman made the play and the throw beat the runner by a step.
There was no bobble, certainly none that the umpire saw or he would have said so.
Joyce blew the call and admitted it.
He put it all on his shoulders and asked for no mercy.
You ought to appreciate that and quit making feeble excuses Joyce himself would reject.
He is a man who made a mistake, then owned up to it.
He will be behind the plate today and life will go on.

cviverito Thu Jun 03, 2010 08:37am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cviverito (Post 679914)
I watched the vid but did not see a 'juggle' angle. Anybody got that one?

Ok - I found it. I don't see any lack of control. I see a snow-cone catch. But I have it in slo-mo. Joyce thought he beat it. As he said he kicked it.

David B Thu Jun 03, 2010 08:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMan (Post 679905)

But that does no good, it still ruins a perfect game, simply gives him a no-hitter.

i thought it interesting this morning Don Denkinger (sp?) was interviewed on Mike and Mike and he was in favor of "instant replay" in certain situations.

We all know that it won't work in many situations because of the nature of baseball, but on a play such as this one with no other runners on base it could be used. At least that was his take.

One other comment interesting this morning watching ESPN, the runner who was ruled safe said, "given the situation, I was expecting to be called out."

Wow that is revealing to me that the players know there is such thing as the "expected call" in certain situations.
I give him credit for being honest.

Thanks
David

DLH17 Thu Jun 03, 2010 08:54am

Speaking of Denkinger, he must be loving the fact he's off the hotseat now after 25 years.

cviverito Thu Jun 03, 2010 09:01am

One thing that comes to mind for me - "situation awareness". Almost always a good thing for an umpire to have. Especially good for being prepared to get into position.

I think there are some details in a game that we might not want to be aware of - they are score and who the game is important to and why. I think knowing that can draw on our emotions...which I think can cloud our judgment. After all...we're only human. Anyone have a good example of why we need to know the score or importance of game?

Case-in-point against knowing...called a banger at 1st base in a conf JUCCO game earlier this year...got it right. Total focus on the sound, etc. Glad I got it right too because it sealed a no-hitter. Walking off the field I was like (best Eddie Murphy "where's all my money?" impression) 'hey...why the hell are all the players dog-piling on the mound?'...then I looked at the score-board and it all made sense.

Not that knowing would have made my call anything else...but it would have increased the pressure to get it right. Pressure...love the rush...but it can be an obstacle to an umpire.

Dealone Thu Jun 03, 2010 09:05am

The only way I can visualize a top-level umpire missing a call like this was that the play developed in a way that compromised his perspective given his position on the line. I'm not saying Joyce was out of position. I'm saying the play ended up a footrace where Joyce had a difficult headon view (and not a great view for a F1 bobble either because the bobble is also going to be moving toward Joyce) and Joyce said that he saw the runner beat the throw. Whichever way F3 played ball is irrelevant. I would like to see a replay from a downline camera angle (Joyce's perspective) to see what might have caused Joyce to miss this important call so badly. I wish the media coverage would point out that this is difficult play because the ump has to be in two places at once (fieldside of F1 for the silent no-pop catch, and at same time, foul territory to judge the footrace from a decent lateral perspective). Maybe that argues for a call followed by standard consultation.

DLH17 Thu Jun 03, 2010 09:12am

I didn't see a bobble.

jimpiano Thu Jun 03, 2010 09:35am

The idea that the first baseman somehow contributed to the confusion by fielding the ball and throwing out the runner on a pitcher covering is the most ludicrous defense I have seen on here.

It was a simple play and it was the 27th out of a perfect game!
I played first base.
That is a routine play for professionals who practice pitcher covering all year long.
No first basemen with an ounce of experience would let the ball go to the second basemen with the game or a perfect game on the line.

MD Longhorn Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:01am

Quote:

Originally Posted by cviverito (Post 679925)
Anyone have a good example of why we need to know the score or importance of game?

Only in the last inning (or near the time limit), so I know when to call the game over. Importance of the game? Every game is important... if one is "more" important to someone, I agree with you - I don't want to know it.

archangel Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:02am

Well, I think we all can agree on 2 things:
- we all make mistakes
- thank god it wasnt me

refesq11 Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:29am

Quote:

Originally Posted by asdf (Post 679889)
Never gonna happen....

It's no different than if you are the Trail official and miss an obvious travel out top, in your primary, during the last seconds of a tied State Championship game. The missed call leads to a game winning basket.

You are not going to confer with your Center or your Lead in this situation. Nor are they going to come to you.

You just live or die with the call.

It's unfortunate, but bad things happen to good people........This situation proves it....all the way around.

Perfectly said. Moreover, baseball rules are very specific about what can be, and cannot be, appealed to a partner. This is simply not one of those situations. And, probably more than any other sport, baseball is absolutely taboo on partners giving unsolicited advice. Keep your nose out of it unless asked by your partner. Period.

KJUmp Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty (Post 679788)
We could have had two perfect games in a week and three in a month. Nice job of altering history. Thanks for busting to get a good angle with a guy's once-in-a-lifetime achievement on the line.

Sleep tight.

Gee...guess you never screwed one up on the field. I'm sure that Jim Joyce could learn a great deal from you.

Texas Aggie Thu Jun 03, 2010 01:14pm

In football, we talk about big calls in certain situations -- like late in a close game, or ejections anytime: we want what we call to show up on film. That is a want, not a require -- so we'll get what we have to get. Last fall in a very close game, I flagged a clip on what ended up being a run for a TD; my call, which was clearly correct and did show up on film (I'm sure; didn't see it, but didn't hear about it later) probably affected the winner.

To me, in baseball, in the 9th inning of a perfect game, that SAFE call has GOT to be clear. While I don't want a team to be cheated, the runner is going to be out unless he's clearly safe -- dropped ball, missed bag, etc. Do you baseball guys agree or disagree with this?

The thing is, most very close plays at first I see in college and MLB almost always go out. Has Joyce said what he was thinking during the call?

cviverito Thu Jun 03, 2010 01:56pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie (Post 679988)
Has Joyce said what he was thinking during the call?

Yeah. He said he thought the runner beat it.

Kevin Finnerty Thu Jun 03, 2010 03:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimpiano (Post 679933)
No first basemen with an ounce of experience would let the ball go to the second basemen with the game or a perfect game on the line.

Plus, Plus!

You do NOT let the ball go by you in a perfect game. Period. There was so much noise that any communication by the second baseman couldn't be heard for certain. Cabrera took over, made a good, routine pick-up and made a fine feed and everything.

mick Thu Jun 03, 2010 03:09pm

So, ...
 
... Leyland sent Galaraga to the plate umpire Joyce with the lineup card where tears are flowing and Chevrolet gave Galaraga a Corvette.

Kevin Finnerty Thu Jun 03, 2010 03:09pm

Every umpire's hat should be off to Jim Joyce today.

The guy has handled the single most glaring call in over a generation with dignity and class. We should all be proud of the guy for the way he has taken this on.

Magnificent.

I'm telling you, when the red-eyed Joyce wiped his eyes and rubbed the tears off on his shirt, and turned and tapped Galarraga on the shoulder, it made you weep. This whole incident has elevated this pair of true professionals to an even higher level than completing the perfect game could have. Tom Verducci mentioned something like that and it's true.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...=.jsp&c_id=mlb

What an amazing event.

mick Thu Jun 03, 2010 03:33pm

From Detroit:
 
Armando Galarraga presents lineup card to Jim Joyce | detnews.com | The Detroit News

BigGref Thu Jun 03, 2010 06:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dealone (Post 679926)
The only way I can visualize a top-level umpire missing a call like this was that the play developed in a way that compromised his perspective given his position on the line. I'm not saying Joyce was out of position. I'm saying the play ended up a footrace where Joyce had a difficult headon view (and not a great view for a F1 bobble either because the bobble is also going to be moving toward Joyce) and Joyce said that he saw the runner beat the throw. Whichever way F3 played ball is irrelevant. I would like to see a replay from a downline camera angle (Joyce's perspective) to see what might have caused Joyce to miss this important call so badly. I wish the media coverage would point out that this is difficult play because the ump has to be in two places at once (fieldside of F1 for the silent no-pop catch, and at same time, foul territory to judge the footrace from a decent lateral perspective). Maybe that argues for a call followed by standard consultation.

Well Put Dealone, look forward to some more posts...
This was indeed a not so normal play, due to the factors seen above, is an excuse... well, yes a little bit, but as it has been stated ad nauseum the game is officiated by humans, and some mistakes will happen, hopefully never at this level, at this moment. I also love how the slow motion, freeze frame shot that is shown on news channels today loudly proclaiming it was such an "easy call".
But as I saw tonight on the nightly news, Brian Williams put it well that the situation does send some great messages to the young players, that sometimes things may not go your way, even though you "deserved" it, that what you do afterwards shows the true you. there have been a lot of BIG people in this situation.
As far as some that just want to kick someone who is already down, by saying things like "hope your happy, etc," they're just dicks.

UMP25 Thu Jun 03, 2010 07:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 679917)
There was no bobble. F1 caught the ball in the webbing while in contact with the base. As he came off the base, the ball slipped deeper into the glove. Not a bobble.

The ESPN video I saw shows the play.

By rule, then, that is not a catch of the ball and therefore should not be ruled an out. When tagging a base or runner, a fielder must have secure possession of the ball immediately before, during, and immediately after the tag is applied. This did not seem to occur in the play in question.

The very first time I saw the replay, admittedly after hearing about how Joyce kicked the call, I instantly belted out to myself, "Hey! The ball was moving in his mitt! He never had secure possession of it. My God! Joyce got the call correct but for the wrong reason."

Regardless, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon that defends Joyce's call or blasts it. I'm simply stating what I saw in the first replay I viewed and why.

UMP25 Thu Jun 03, 2010 07:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty (Post 680032)
Every umpire's hat should be off to Jim Joyce today.

The guy has handled the single most glaring call in over a generation with dignity and class. We should all be proud of the guy for the way he has taken this on.

Magnificent.

I'm telling you, when the red-eyed Joyce wiped his eyes and rubbed the tears off on his shirt, and turned and tapped Galarraga on the shoulder, it made you weep. This whole incident has elevated this pair of true professionals to an even higher level than completing the perfect game could have. Tom Verducci mentioned something like that and it's true.

Gammons: Tigers, Joyce show class | MLB.com: News

What an amazing event.

What a contrast between this situation and Milt Pappas's near perfecto when Bruce Froemming was behind the plate and called a pitch ball four to ruin Milt's perfect game. In an interview today on ABC 7 Chicago News, Milt ripped into Froemming, calling him, among other things, "arrogant". Milt went on to praise Joyce then continued ripping into Froemming's attitude and demeanor, saying that when he was asked by Froemming if he wanted Froemming's autograph on the ball, Pappas told Froemming, "You can shove that ball up your @ss!"

Big difference between umpires there.

collinb Thu Jun 03, 2010 08:20pm

Get it right
 
Why is it that all the umpires could not have gotten together and got the call right. I have been on both sides of a kicked call in two umpiring.
I'm not to proud to reverse the call that everyone and my partner see as an error in judgement.
I believe an umpire should never call an out if he does not see it.
So if you did not see it what's wrong with calling safe and getting together with your partners and making a determination on the right call.
If it's bang bang then you leave the call as is.

eyezen Thu Jun 03, 2010 08:29pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimpiano (Post 679933)
The idea that the first baseman somehow contributed to the confusion by fielding the ball and throwing out the runner on a pitcher covering is the most ludicrous defense I have seen on here.

It was a simple play and it was the 27th out of a perfect game!
I played first base.
That is a routine play for professionals who practice pitcher covering all year long.
No first basemen with an ounce of experience would let the ball go to the second basemen with the game or a perfect game on the line.

Whatever, MTD has a great point. I played 1B too for whatever that's worth, except to dismiss your ounce of experience claim, that ball is 2B's all the way. I'm going to cover the bag like I should and in my game the perfecto would of been celebrated. The 1B got caught up in the moment as well and made the entire play more difficult than it should of been. Doesn't dismiss the call at all but to say it had no effect is just as ludicrous.

SethPDX Thu Jun 03, 2010 08:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by collinb (Post 680094)
Why is it that all the umpires could not have gotten together and got the call right. I have been on both sides of a kicked call in two umpiring.
I'm not to proud to reverse the call that everyone and my partner see as an error in judgement.
I believe an umpire should never call an out if he does not see it.
So if you did not see it what's wrong with calling safe and getting together with your partners and making a determination on the right call.
If it's bang bang then you leave the call as is.

Joyce believed he had the call right, and besides, this is not a play in which you go to your partners.

johnnyg08 Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:15pm

Longtime Minneapolis sports writer Sid Hartman calls Jim Joyce a "Stupid imbecile."

Videos from Minneapolis, St. Paul, the Twin Cities area and Minnesota I StarTribune.com

Seems a bit harsh in my opinion. Easy to talk about umpiring from the press box.

jimpiano Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:09pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyg08 (Post 680103)
Longtime Minneapolis sports writer Sid Hartman calls Jim Joyce a "Stupid imbecile."

Videos from Minneapolis, St. Paul, the Twin Cities area and Minnesota I StarTribune.com

Seems a bit harsh in my opinion. Easy to talk about umpiring from the press box.

It was also stupid.

jimpiano Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:14pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyezen (Post 680095)
Whatever, MTD has a great point. I played 1B too for whatever that's worth, except to dismiss your ounce of experience claim, that ball is 2B's all the way. I'm going to cover the bag like I should and in my game the perfecto would of been celebrated. The 1B got caught up in the moment as well and made the entire play more difficult than it should of been. Doesn't dismiss the call at all but to say it had no effect is just as ludicrous.

Except, of course, the first baseman made a routine play to the pitcher and got the runner by a step.

I mean this argument is a frigging joke.

greymule Fri Jun 04, 2010 09:02am

As he came off the base, the ball slipped deeper into the glove = not a catch (?)

I can see ruling a bobble if the ball is rolling around in an open glove or is otherwise unsecured, or (obviously) if the fielder has to make some sort of move with his hand or arm to secure a ball loose in the glove. But calling a bobble when the ball simply moves down from the top of a closed glove toward the palm of a closed glove—that's a tough one.

Can you see Joyce explaining, "The ball was in the glove before the runner reached 1B, but just after the runner crossed the bag, the ball slid down toward the palm of the glove"?

Number of Major League perfect games from May 1, 1922, to October 7, 1956: zero.

Number in the past month: two (plus one).

Joyce's call was actually a rather routine bad call. We've all seen far worse, even in the World Series, that are now forgotten. It was the element of the possible perfect game that made it stand out.

cviverito Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:33am

I keep reading comments about how the ball was bobbled or that it was not controlled before, during or after the base was tagged. As far as I've read and watched these interpretations are completely wrong. From what I see I have no doubt that the catch, the solid grip during the tag, and the natural re-grip of the ball all constitute displayed control. Why? At no time did Gallaraga's actions display a loss of control over the ball. He had secure possession on the tag and simply re-gripped the ball after the tag.

I know we all work very hard to get it right all the time...and I understand how this can be interpreted as a bobble. BUT...I think that is a smitty interpretation of the rule.

For the doubters, let me ask you this...do you think Gallaraga was bobbling the ball or do you think it was secure for the tag and Gallaraga simply re-gripped it in the style of a master after he believed he completed the out?

Before answering ask yourself one thing: Did he appear to have control before he re-gripped?

Or ask yourself this: If he did not re-grip, would you have control? If yes, why does it change with the re-grip? It would appear that the only sufficient answer is "because he lost control of it".

LMan Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:20am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimpiano (Post 680106)
Except, of course, the first baseman made a routine play to the pitcher and got the runner by a step.

I mean this argument is a frigging joke.

Amen.

grunewar Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:40pm

Uh oh, now we've gone and done it......FANS!
 
Poll: Fans want umpire's blown call overturned, expanded instant replay - Daily Pitch: MLB News, Standings, Schedules & More - USATODAY.com

UMP25 Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:43pm

Question to consider: what if this call was the first call of the game, with every succeeding batter being put out for a near-perfect game? Would the cries for overturning be the same?

Kaliix Fri Jun 04, 2010 01:09pm

Look, Joyce missed the call, no doubt. No matter how the play developed, the call was a gross miss, at the worst possible time.

But the play was NOT routine. I watched numerous replays and the fact is that Cabrera really had no business fielding that ball. Watch the replay again, from the wide view, and you will see that he ranged so far to his right that he as IN FRONT OF the F4 when he fielded the ball. If F4 is playing up the middle then maybe he should get it. But F4 was perfectly positioned to make the play. Cabrera, being a MLB player, should of course be aware of this and should have let this develop into a routine play.

Now this in no way absolves Joyce from the call, but I don't think he misses this one if it's a routine grounder to F4. Doesn't make it right but I think the argument has merit.


Quote:

Originally Posted by jimpiano (Post 680106)
Except, of course, the first baseman made a routine play to the pitcher and got the runner by a step.

I mean this argument is a frigging joke.


celebur Fri Jun 04, 2010 01:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by UMP25 (Post 680070)
By rule, then, that is not a catch of the ball and therefore should not be ruled an out. When tagging a base or runner, a fielder must have secure possession of the ball immediately before, during, and immediately after the tag is applied. This did not seem to occur in the play in question.

The very first time I saw the replay, admittedly after hearing about how Joyce kicked the call, I instantly belted out to myself, "Hey! The ball was moving in his mitt! He never had secure possession of it. My God! Joyce got the call correct but for the wrong reason."

Regardless, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon that defends Joyce's call or blasts it. I'm simply stating what I saw in the first replay I viewed and why.

That's not how I saw it. F1 'snow-coned' the ball, but he had complete control. After he came off the bag, he flipped it deeper into the pocket. That looked deliberate to me (he thought he had an out, and he was making sure to keep this ball as a momento since it would have been the final out in his perfect game), and happened after the criteria for ruling out/safe.


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