Joyce misses one
We all miss 'em...but man...that's tough.
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I'm just hearing about it... very tough.
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Yea I know, Peter missed one the other day too.
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I only saw the replay from one angle, foul side of first. Was there any other replay that showed a bobble or something else weird?
Did Leyland argue? |
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Leyland came out after the play and talked relatively calmly (at least that's how it looked to me). After the game, however, he came out and let Joyce have it. Some of the Tiger players were out there as well. And after the play but while the game was going on, Miguel Cabrera was clearly letting Joyce know what he thought.
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Wow! Can you say Don Denkinger? That was so obviously an out, he wouldn't even have had to sell it.
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Joyce got slammed and deservedly so. How can anyone blow a call that obvious under those conditions? What an embarrassment to MLB. The calls for replay will now reach a crescendo. Joyce's fifteen minutes of fame will now be a week of infamy. |
For those that may have missed it....
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You have to admire Galarraga's composure after losing a perfect game that way. Showed a lot of class imo.
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Position.
I don't think he had a good angle. He was still on the line.
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Leyland
Leyland let him have it on the field after the game but he was moreunderstanding in the post game...human element that is part of the game. Called Joyce a very, very good umpire.
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We could have had two perfect games in a week and three in a month. Nice job of altering history. Thanks for busting to get a good angle with a guy's once-in-a-lifetime achievement on the line.
Sleep tight. |
Yeah, it will make history for the wrong reasons though.
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While not mitigating the blown call, Cabrera should be last guy to argue. Looking a replay ball was directly hit at 2B Carlos Guillen and if Cabrera stays put it is a routine 4-3.
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Our association meets tonight. I'm guessing this call might become an unofficial topic of discussion.
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At the risk of being abused by my fellow officials for supporting instant replay. I am watching the Stanley Cup Finals and there was a replay that awarded a goal correctly. This is an example of how instant replay can work(only at the major league level). I say give the Major league managers one challenge during a game. If they are wrong on the challenge, they go bye-bye. :D
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That was pretty stupid. |
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Um - watch the replay again. Good call. My son and I both instantly said "out" when seeing the first shot in real time. However, we both just as quickly said "wow - good call" when seeing the other angle slow motion replay. First baseman did not have control.
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I'm not a baseball umpire. I frequent two other forums on this board.
I would like the opinions of the experts here on these points: 1. The ball was not caught cleanly. It hits the heel of the glove and rolls forward to the fingertips. You can see it at the tip of the glove and then Galarraga flips his wrist to roll it in more securely after the call is made. I wonder if the umpire had him bobbling the ball. Will the pitcher say that he didn't quite have control? (ESPN phone interview with him right now! Galarraga says he does know what the umpire saw. Didn't mention a bobble. He said that he did speak with Joyce after the game.) 2. Due to the manner in which the ball was caught, there probably wasn't a solid pop sound made when the throw reached the glove, plus the crowd would have been fairly loud. I'm told that on close plays at 1st the umpires sometimes watch for the foot hitting the base and listen for the ball hitting the glove. The lack of a pop sound could have tricked Joyce. Quote:
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Joyce went into the Tiger clubhouse immediately after seeing the replay and apologized to Galaragga - I guess he was pretty sure he missed it.
Both guys are class acts for how they handled things. |
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For those of you defending the call, please stop. There was no "lack of control" evident, anywhere. He blew it, plain and simple, and robbed the kid of a perfecto. I'm even an Indians fan (yes, I admitted it).
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Hell, he doesn't even know the proper positioning on a play like the one being discussed. I suspect he is a rat in sheep's clothing. |
Joyce admitted to missing the call in an interview.
Said he, "I just cost that kid a perfect game". |
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http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/spor...fect-game.html But thanks for playing.....:D |
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This is a tough call because you don't have the best angle, I would think he would have moved a step or so more to his right, but I've also seen MLB guys stay right on the line for this type of throw. Bottom line, in this type of situation, the umpire should give any doubt to the pitcher, just as you will with a Derek Jeter type throw at ss when he's in left field or a third baseman making a great bare handed throw on the run. I feel for the guy, he's not going to be able to live that one down for a while. Thansk David |
I'm not a baseball umpire, either, but may I ask this question?
If Mr. Joyce felt that the ball was not caught cleanly, could the official scorebook be changed to E1, thereby becoming a no-hitter? |
“I just cost that kid a perfect game,” Joyce said. “I thought he beat the throw. I was convinced he beat the throw, until I saw the replay.”
“It was the biggest call of my career,” said Joyce, who became a full-time major league umpire in 1989. |
Is there another game there tomorrow? He's got the dish. Should be interesting if they're in Detroit.
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Detroit plays Cleveland again. I think it's a 1:05 Eastern start in Detroit.
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So, if you're MLB, do you rush in a replacement (as they do for doubleheaders) and give Joyce they day off tomorrow, or does he get "back on the horse" and face the hostile crowd?
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It's easy to be the smartest guy in the room when you already have the answers in advance. |
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I give Joyce credit for not using the replay to say that he thought it was a bobble called safe. He stood by what led him to his call (incorrectly thinking that the throw beat the runner.) However, that doesn't negate the fact that it was a bobble. Pretty clear in the video referenced earlier in this thread.
If the call were "out" and it cost a victory, everyone would point to the bobble and scream for blood. Just because the call cost a piece of history, you dont give it the ol' in the neighborhood, or close enough call. |
From mlb.com:
"I just cost that kid a perfect game," Joyce said. "I thought he beat the throw. I was convinced he beat the throw, until I saw the replay. It was the biggest call of my career." Galarraga said he gave Joyce a hug when Joyce apologized to him after the game. "He really feels bad," Galarraga said. "He probably feels more bad than me. Nobody is perfect. I give a lot of credit to that guy. That (an apology) doesn't happen. He apologized. He feels really bad. Nobody is perfect. What am I gonna do? His body language said more than a lot of words. His eyes were watery, he didn't have too say much. His body language said a lot." Galarraga retired Trevor Crowe to preserve the shutout, but Tigers players Gerald Laird and Jeremy Bonderman took a detour from the postgame celebration to have words with Joyce, as did manager Jim Leyland. "That's the nature of the business, that's just the way it is. The players are human, the umpires are human, the managers are human, the writers are human," Leyland said. "We all make mistakes. It's a crying shame. Jimmy's a real good umpire, has been for a long time. He probably got it wrong." ---------- Joyce and Galarraga both showed tons of class in the way they handled an unfortunate situation. |
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I just hope this doesn't affect Joyce for the rest of his MLB career. Situations like this will dog a pro official for years, especially now in the ESPN-era, where they talk about this 24 hrs/day for the next week. In fact, every time Joyce makes a call from here on out they'll probably show a clip of tonight.
My thoughts are with him and his family. There's no telling what kind of idiots are out there ready to harass him where ever he goes. All sports officials need to step up and have this guy's back. |
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More nice work. |
Watch the replay again...in slow motion if you can...Joyce was going to bang him out.
I just watched the replay again on Baseball Tonight...he was going to punch him out. To decrease the drama...yes, I agree with Mr. Joyce that he missed the call. Just for discussion...anybody else see him ready to punch him out then safe him? |
Again I don't work baseball, so this is coming from an official of other sports, but I'm looking for the opinion of you baseball guys on whether or not it would be acceptable on a play like this to go to Mr. 2nd Base Umpire and Mr. Home Plate Umpire and ask, "What did you see?"
The answers could generate: "Hmmmm... both of you think that I kicked it... Well, I thought that I was sure, but perhaps I should change that." I didn't see any conference or even a conversation with another umpire take place, so I believe that there wasn't one. In hindsight we know that such could have saved Mr. Joyce much grief. Obviously, I know that officials can go to partners for help on plays, but there are also certain plays where it just isn't appropriate due to the coverage area or look that other officials would have. Credibility concerns factor into this. So on a play like this at 1st what is the line of thinking of a baseball crew? Should he ask for help after the manager complains? Should help be offered from the 2B guy given the circumstances under which the play occurred? I can't imagine that unsolicited help would be welcome except for the most extreme cases. So from a baseball perspective, what's the scoop? |
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If you watch it he was getting ready to punch him. Obviously it doesn't matter, but he was going to punch him...watch his hands.
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U1 was ready to call the out until the firstbaseman under threw the ball and made the F1 hestitate. The ump blew the call because the the firstbaseman didn't shuffle the ball and lead the pitcher. Once you have got to watch a lot of things (that means more than one) you might miss something. It's all on 1B who ragged on the ump the most. He knew he FU'd the play. The ump blew it but the 1B throw made it all possible. That's a routine out when done properly but it's on 1B. They know we are human so when a close one goes against them when they did not do it right it's on them. eg: the ball beats the runner and if the tag goes to the bag you got an out but what does the fielder tag, the hip. What u got? OR, Instant replay.
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I don't like to say "never," but I simply can't imagine a professional crew getting together on a play like this. There are very rare times when the 1BU might ask the PU for help on a play at 1B but this play was not one of them. This is going to be the 1BU's call all the way and he is not going to change it. |
This may not be a popular sentiment, but what if the crew chief had taken the extraordinary step of going to the video replay despite the rules stating that this isn't a reviewable play? Basically, given the circumstances, just do it anyway and say the heck with it.
He could learn two things: 1. the 1BU got the call right. Then he knows that they didn't ruin a perfect game, and he takes a fine or a couple game suspension. Given the circumstances, he would be likely to get a great deal of support from the players, managers, fans, and analysts. It might even lead to a rule change. 2. the 1BU kicked the call. The change could be made with certainty and instead of the 1BU getting blasted and possibly ruining his career, the focus would be on the controversial use of the video replay, which would likely be applauded by all involved. (I've seen D1 basketball officials go to the courtside monitor for things which aren't permitted by rule, and I've never heard of one of them being punished for it.) I can't imagine that Cleveland would protest and try to have the perfect game nixed. The bad PR would be overwhelming. The rule would also likely be modified somehow, perhaps by including a safe or out call which would end a game. |
Some interesting comments from all involved
Leyland said the umpire's call was part of the "human element of the game" and did not think it constituted a case for the use of replay.
"I'm sure somebody is going to say, 'if we had replay on that play, that kid would have a perfect game.' Somebody will say something about that, but not me," Leyland said. "That's the human element. Umpires do a great job. There's no question about that. They're a whole lot right more than they are wrong. They make some unbelievable calls on bang-bang plays." Entire article is at: Missed call leaves Detroit's Armando Galarraga one out shy of perfect game - Daily Pitch: MLB News, Standings, Schedules & More - USATODAY.com |
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It's no different than if you are the Trail official and miss an obvious travel out top, in your primary, during the last seconds of a tied State Championship game. The missed call leads to a game winning basket. You are not going to confer with your Center or your Lead in this situation. Nor are they going to come to you. You just live or die with the call. It's unfortunate, but bad things happen to good people........This situation proves it....all the way around. |
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Mistakes haunt people all the time. Bill Buckner, Jackie Smith, Leon Lett. Along with that fat paycheck comes some additional scrutiny should you be unfortunate or incompetent enough to make a highly visible mistake in a highly publicized situation. |
and whats even worse is JJ made it all about him by saying "Thats the worst call of MY career".
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Lee: Mark, Jr., and I think you for your astute observation. As some people on this Forum know, I am the father of two first basemen (Andy, still in H.S., and MTD, Jr., who now umpires H.S. baseball). MTD, Jr., and I still are of the opinion that F1 did not have control of the throw until after he pulled his foot off of 1B, but MTD, Jr., also made the following comment after watching the replay: "The gods of baseball got it right. F3 had no business fielding the ball. This should have been a routine 4-3 ground out, with the B/R being out by a mile." By the way Jim Joyce is a NW Ohio boy, having graduated for Toledo (Ohio) Central Catholic H.S. and Bowling Green (Ohio) State Univ.; he played baseball at both schools. He now livesi in Oregon, Ohio, an eastern suburb of Toledo. I do not recall ever meeting him because he was in the Majors before I moved to Toledo. MTD, Sr. |
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Already hearing about it on sports talk radio and ESPN non stop. Many think this will be THE impetus for expanding replay (and if they did it, I would totally be in favor for it). Even heard calls for Bud Selig to retroactively declare the out and award the perfect game. I find that one a little less likely to happen. |
I was impressed with Joyce's decision to admit he made a mistake on that call. Hopefully, this does not damage his career too much, if at all.
Leyland's comment about Joyce during his post game interview were classy and might help soften a lot of potential impact to Joyce. |
I watched the vid but did not see a 'juggle' angle. Anybody got that one? Either way it matters not because, as we all know, Joyce thought the runner beat it.
I do see him begin to wind-up for the punch...but I give him credit for calling what his brain had instead of what his heart wanted. |
There was no bobble. F1 caught the ball in the webbing while in contact with the base. As he came off the base, the ball slipped deeper into the glove. Not a bobble.
The ESPN video I saw shows the play. |
MTD, Sr.[/QUOTE]
God, what total bullcrap. The first baseman made the play and the throw beat the runner by a step. There was no bobble, certainly none that the umpire saw or he would have said so. Joyce blew the call and admitted it. He put it all on his shoulders and asked for no mercy. You ought to appreciate that and quit making feeble excuses Joyce himself would reject. He is a man who made a mistake, then owned up to it. He will be behind the plate today and life will go on. |
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i thought it interesting this morning Don Denkinger (sp?) was interviewed on Mike and Mike and he was in favor of "instant replay" in certain situations. We all know that it won't work in many situations because of the nature of baseball, but on a play such as this one with no other runners on base it could be used. At least that was his take. One other comment interesting this morning watching ESPN, the runner who was ruled safe said, "given the situation, I was expecting to be called out." Wow that is revealing to me that the players know there is such thing as the "expected call" in certain situations. I give him credit for being honest. Thanks David |
Speaking of Denkinger, he must be loving the fact he's off the hotseat now after 25 years.
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One thing that comes to mind for me - "situation awareness". Almost always a good thing for an umpire to have. Especially good for being prepared to get into position.
I think there are some details in a game that we might not want to be aware of - they are score and who the game is important to and why. I think knowing that can draw on our emotions...which I think can cloud our judgment. After all...we're only human. Anyone have a good example of why we need to know the score or importance of game? Case-in-point against knowing...called a banger at 1st base in a conf JUCCO game earlier this year...got it right. Total focus on the sound, etc. Glad I got it right too because it sealed a no-hitter. Walking off the field I was like (best Eddie Murphy "where's all my money?" impression) 'hey...why the hell are all the players dog-piling on the mound?'...then I looked at the score-board and it all made sense. Not that knowing would have made my call anything else...but it would have increased the pressure to get it right. Pressure...love the rush...but it can be an obstacle to an umpire. |
The only way I can visualize a top-level umpire missing a call like this was that the play developed in a way that compromised his perspective given his position on the line. I'm not saying Joyce was out of position. I'm saying the play ended up a footrace where Joyce had a difficult headon view (and not a great view for a F1 bobble either because the bobble is also going to be moving toward Joyce) and Joyce said that he saw the runner beat the throw. Whichever way F3 played ball is irrelevant. I would like to see a replay from a downline camera angle (Joyce's perspective) to see what might have caused Joyce to miss this important call so badly. I wish the media coverage would point out that this is difficult play because the ump has to be in two places at once (fieldside of F1 for the silent no-pop catch, and at same time, foul territory to judge the footrace from a decent lateral perspective). Maybe that argues for a call followed by standard consultation.
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I didn't see a bobble.
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The idea that the first baseman somehow contributed to the confusion by fielding the ball and throwing out the runner on a pitcher covering is the most ludicrous defense I have seen on here.
It was a simple play and it was the 27th out of a perfect game! I played first base. That is a routine play for professionals who practice pitcher covering all year long. No first basemen with an ounce of experience would let the ball go to the second basemen with the game or a perfect game on the line. |
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Well, I think we all can agree on 2 things:
- we all make mistakes - thank god it wasnt me |
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In football, we talk about big calls in certain situations -- like late in a close game, or ejections anytime: we want what we call to show up on film. That is a want, not a require -- so we'll get what we have to get. Last fall in a very close game, I flagged a clip on what ended up being a run for a TD; my call, which was clearly correct and did show up on film (I'm sure; didn't see it, but didn't hear about it later) probably affected the winner.
To me, in baseball, in the 9th inning of a perfect game, that SAFE call has GOT to be clear. While I don't want a team to be cheated, the runner is going to be out unless he's clearly safe -- dropped ball, missed bag, etc. Do you baseball guys agree or disagree with this? The thing is, most very close plays at first I see in college and MLB almost always go out. Has Joyce said what he was thinking during the call? |
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You do NOT let the ball go by you in a perfect game. Period. There was so much noise that any communication by the second baseman couldn't be heard for certain. Cabrera took over, made a good, routine pick-up and made a fine feed and everything. |
So, ...
... Leyland sent Galaraga to the plate umpire Joyce with the lineup card where tears are flowing and Chevrolet gave Galaraga a Corvette.
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Every umpire's hat should be off to Jim Joyce today.
The guy has handled the single most glaring call in over a generation with dignity and class. We should all be proud of the guy for the way he has taken this on. Magnificent. I'm telling you, when the red-eyed Joyce wiped his eyes and rubbed the tears off on his shirt, and turned and tapped Galarraga on the shoulder, it made you weep. This whole incident has elevated this pair of true professionals to an even higher level than completing the perfect game could have. Tom Verducci mentioned something like that and it's true. http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...=.jsp&c_id=mlb What an amazing event. |
From Detroit:
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This was indeed a not so normal play, due to the factors seen above, is an excuse... well, yes a little bit, but as it has been stated ad nauseum the game is officiated by humans, and some mistakes will happen, hopefully never at this level, at this moment. I also love how the slow motion, freeze frame shot that is shown on news channels today loudly proclaiming it was such an "easy call". But as I saw tonight on the nightly news, Brian Williams put it well that the situation does send some great messages to the young players, that sometimes things may not go your way, even though you "deserved" it, that what you do afterwards shows the true you. there have been a lot of BIG people in this situation. As far as some that just want to kick someone who is already down, by saying things like "hope your happy, etc," they're just dicks. |
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The very first time I saw the replay, admittedly after hearing about how Joyce kicked the call, I instantly belted out to myself, "Hey! The ball was moving in his mitt! He never had secure possession of it. My God! Joyce got the call correct but for the wrong reason." Regardless, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon that defends Joyce's call or blasts it. I'm simply stating what I saw in the first replay I viewed and why. |
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Big difference between umpires there. |
Get it right
Why is it that all the umpires could not have gotten together and got the call right. I have been on both sides of a kicked call in two umpiring.
I'm not to proud to reverse the call that everyone and my partner see as an error in judgement. I believe an umpire should never call an out if he does not see it. So if you did not see it what's wrong with calling safe and getting together with your partners and making a determination on the right call. If it's bang bang then you leave the call as is. |
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Longtime Minneapolis sports writer Sid Hartman calls Jim Joyce a "Stupid imbecile."
Videos from Minneapolis, St. Paul, the Twin Cities area and Minnesota I StarTribune.com Seems a bit harsh in my opinion. Easy to talk about umpiring from the press box. |
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I mean this argument is a frigging joke. |
As he came off the base, the ball slipped deeper into the glove = not a catch (?)
I can see ruling a bobble if the ball is rolling around in an open glove or is otherwise unsecured, or (obviously) if the fielder has to make some sort of move with his hand or arm to secure a ball loose in the glove. But calling a bobble when the ball simply moves down from the top of a closed glove toward the palm of a closed glove—that's a tough one. Can you see Joyce explaining, "The ball was in the glove before the runner reached 1B, but just after the runner crossed the bag, the ball slid down toward the palm of the glove"? Number of Major League perfect games from May 1, 1922, to October 7, 1956: zero. Number in the past month: two (plus one). Joyce's call was actually a rather routine bad call. We've all seen far worse, even in the World Series, that are now forgotten. It was the element of the possible perfect game that made it stand out. |
I keep reading comments about how the ball was bobbled or that it was not controlled before, during or after the base was tagged. As far as I've read and watched these interpretations are completely wrong. From what I see I have no doubt that the catch, the solid grip during the tag, and the natural re-grip of the ball all constitute displayed control. Why? At no time did Gallaraga's actions display a loss of control over the ball. He had secure possession on the tag and simply re-gripped the ball after the tag.
I know we all work very hard to get it right all the time...and I understand how this can be interpreted as a bobble. BUT...I think that is a smitty interpretation of the rule. For the doubters, let me ask you this...do you think Gallaraga was bobbling the ball or do you think it was secure for the tag and Gallaraga simply re-gripped it in the style of a master after he believed he completed the out? Before answering ask yourself one thing: Did he appear to have control before he re-gripped? Or ask yourself this: If he did not re-grip, would you have control? If yes, why does it change with the re-grip? It would appear that the only sufficient answer is "because he lost control of it". |
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Uh oh, now we've gone and done it......FANS!
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Question to consider: what if this call was the first call of the game, with every succeeding batter being put out for a near-perfect game? Would the cries for overturning be the same?
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Look, Joyce missed the call, no doubt. No matter how the play developed, the call was a gross miss, at the worst possible time.
But the play was NOT routine. I watched numerous replays and the fact is that Cabrera really had no business fielding that ball. Watch the replay again, from the wide view, and you will see that he ranged so far to his right that he as IN FRONT OF the F4 when he fielded the ball. If F4 is playing up the middle then maybe he should get it. But F4 was perfectly positioned to make the play. Cabrera, being a MLB player, should of course be aware of this and should have let this develop into a routine play. Now this in no way absolves Joyce from the call, but I don't think he misses this one if it's a routine grounder to F4. Doesn't make it right but I think the argument has merit. Quote:
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