No snow coning to me. The ball hit his mitt and rolled up. No secure possession; no catch; thus no tag.

I'm not saying the the runner wasn't out, I'm not saying the 1B didn't make they play. But THE "routine" play was F4 fielding the ball, what's a frigging joke is the fact that you think otherwise.

Asinine.

If I ever coached a first baseman that didn't go for a ball like that because he assumed some other fielder could make the play, I'd bench him.

Well, that'd be a bad coaching move on your part. Good 1B's know where 2B is. There is no assumption to be made, the ball was pretty much right to 2B, the same play at 3B cutting in front of SS doesn't apply here, that is an easier play for 3B.

Let me ask you this...if 1B lets 2B field the ball and 1B goes and does what he should, are we having this conversation today?

Honestly, did you see the play...?


If you had, you would see Cabrera half way to second base and in front of F4 when he fields the ball. It's a routine play to second if he let's it go and I think we are all talking about 3 perfect games this year instead of having this discussion...

Joyce missed it. What can you do...

Exactly.

I find it funny with all of the reasons given of why Joyce didn't call him out. Such as "no secure possession". Joyce said he thought the runner beat the throw. That's it. Nothing more. To speculate is useless b/c he didn't say that is why he called the runner safe. He did and then basically told Cabrera to get lost during the game.

He defended it up until he saw the replay. Then, he realized he missed it. At this point, the game is over. The issue is over. It didn't happen and can't be changed regardless of what Selig decided to do. Life goes on and Joyce is still in MLB. He is umpiring another game. He has moved on. Why can't the rest of the baseball world? If it wasn't a perfect game issue, they would have.

Next topic.

As far as I'm concerned, the kid threw a perfect game. It's just not in the books.

All of your comments are spoken like someone who has never umpired a friggin' tiddlywinks contest. You've never umpired before, have you Fanboy? an embarrassment to MLB? You're out of your mind! Sure, I played first base all through my baseball life but I've umpired over 3,500 games on top of it, and you seem to have the mindset of someone who thinks umpiring is easy. Jim Joyce is a fine umpire, and everyone misses calls once in a while. His miss just happened to coincide with a near-perfect game. As Kurtis Blow would say, these are the breaks.

I'm surprised by this reaction from you. Sounds like Joyce did this to you personally, as you say "we" could have had two perfect games in a week. Really? Who cares? Galaraga will get more mileage out of this than he would out of a perfect game. History will forever talk of the "perfect game that wasn't." The first thing I thought of when I heard this (listening to a talk show that was reporting live) was not to selfishly think how I was deprived of a perfect game, I thought about how badly Jim Joyce must feel right now.

This is more along the lines of what I would expect out of you. The other comment was more like a fanboy. Jim Joyce is a stand-up guy in my book. Instead of being arrogant like many umpires would have been, he felt genuinely bad for Galaraga and the Tigers, and for history as well. Umpires who care about the game don't like it when they blow a call. Whenever it happens to me, I beat myself up about it for quite sometime.

Not in St. Louis.:rolleyes:

It also proves that Sid Hartman is a stupid imbecile.:mad:

I appreciate your candor and respect you for it.

I was infuriated at first as a longtime close follower of this great game. (I think that describes me better than fanboy, even though I came off that way.) I couldn't hang with this whole thing. Sure, by the time I slept on it, I felt horribly for the guy---far more so than for Galarraga. By the time Joyce strode through the tunnel for the next game all red-eyed, I wept right along with him. Good heavens, it was one of the most stirring scenes in baseball history hours after being one of the most infuriating and dumbfounding.

When I was blowing off steam, my chiding Joyce for his not busting to his angle got interpreted as my calling his angle a bad one. And my praise of him for standing up like few have ever stood up before, and turning the whole debacle into one of the most meaningful and memorable chapters in the history of umpiring was blasted and exaggerated into something else again. (The exaggerator's exaggeration got deleted.)

Thank you for a mature, honest response. It's a refreshing change from some others' responses.

That's because SDS's advanced age gives him more of life's experiences to pull from. LOL

Happy Birthday Steve

Joyce seemed to be a bit out of position IMHO. Does anyone know if he talked to the other umpires? No one on base, history about to be made, you know everyone is staring at the play. It's possible U2 might have seen enough to convince joyce he was wrong, but I don't even know if the crew discussed it. I have no problem conferring with other umps. These guys make too darn much money not to swallow a little pride now and then.

Not too many officials I know concern theirselfs with the score and statistics during the game. He missed a call, get over it.

It was a routine call to him and therefore a discussion was not necessary. Do you have a group hug after each one of your calls just because someone complains? I bet not.

You imply that your an official but, it is obvious that experience is something you just hav'nt achieved yet.

Your sarcasm is not necessary. A true official is one who wants to get at the right call, not obnoxiously defend a call regardless of the outcome. Yes, I will consult with other members of my crew if someone raises a legitimate question about a call. (If you prefer hugs, that's your choice.) I consider that doing my job to avoid what Joyce did -- ruin a game because of pride. What you call lack of experience on my part I consider arrogance on your part. The game, regardless of level, is for the players, not the umpires. Joyce blew it as we all do at times and we move on. But there is nothing wrong with doing everything possible to make it right when you have the chance to do so.

rinbee,

This was not the type of play that it would be appropriate for the calling umpire to get help on.

Your post reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of how a crew officiates.

I agree with jicecone's comments.

JM

I've read a few times in this threat that people think Joyce was out of position...can any of you please articulate what you believe to be the proper position for a play like this and why?

It's amazing that Denkinger gets blamed for that call YET Jak Clark's miss pop-up off the bat of Steve Balboni that prolonged the inning goes un-noticed.

Pete Booth

All too typical.

Well, we don't "concern" ourselves, but you can't tell me that Joyce didn't know that the pitcher had a perfect game going. There is no way anybody that was paying one iota of attention could have not known, including the umpires.

Thanks Jay!

Yes, my advanced age is beginning to take its toll.

If he did know, then that makes his call even better. He called what he had on the play rather than what everyone expected/wanted him to call on the play.

Uhhh guys,

(And, by "guys" I specifically mean jicecone, Kevin Finnerty, SanDiegoSteve, & Steven Tyler) How about we talk baseball here and leave the political discussion for forums that are focused on that.

It's not appropriate here and it detracts from the forum.

Thanks for considering my request.

JM

P.S. Happy Birthday, Steve! Ya' young whippersnapper.

I'm still waiting to hear what position Joyce should have been in....does anyone who said he was out of position actually have an answer?

He didn't bust @ss; he didn't get set; he followed the throw. So the play blew up on him. It wasn't his angle, it was how he strolled to it and stood there.

I would agree for the most part. It did look like he followed the throw, but I think he takes most of his plays at first in a standing set. Also, there is not much @ss busting to do when you only need to be a step or two off the line. He certainly wasn't late getting to his spot. But the following the throw was probably the major culprit, IMHO.

It would be easier and clearer if everyone explained their statements initially instead of generic criticism. Thank you Kevin.

I take all my all my calls at 1st base and many others on the bases from a standing set position. Placing your hands on your knees is not what defines being "set." On plays with the pitcher covering (or pressure from F3/F4) it is correct to be ready to move one way or the other in case of a bad throw. The umpire has to be able to adjust his angle and view of the play in a split-second's notice.

I understand all of that, and I am a fan of the slightly bent knee, standing set and not the hands-on-knees set for calls at the bases.

My gripe is that a casual stroll that results in a correct call is one thing, and a casual stroll that results in a lack of readiness to make the proper call is glaring and certainly worthy of harsh criticism. When McClelland strolled into position and screwed up that tag play in the LCS, it became the most glaring reason that he screwed up that call. Joyce's strolling and not being set and then following the ball were the apparent reasons that he screwed up that call.

Hustling and the appearance of a willingness to hustle are both very important. Strolling into position, irrespective of where that position is, invites trouble. Joyce got some for a few reasons, but that's just one of them.

On this particular play, the proper setup is "one step fair", and to get in to that position and arrive there at the right moment does not require any hustle. A slight jog or stroll gets you where you need to be. Hustling just for the sake of hustling is called "false hustle," and looks ridiculous. Umpires should bust a$$ whenever necessary, but not in the case of a ground ball to the right side of the infield.

Well, we agree more than it may appear. I am speaking more to this one call and why he blew it, as well as what should be cited when analyzing and criticizing it. He appeared to not be ready for the call, and when he blew it, his apparent lack of readiness and the reasons behind it became a point of emphasis.

There.

While he was wrong, he was certain the runner beat the throw. Why should he go to his crew for help? Because the defense was loudly protesting a play that would have given their pitcher a perfect game? Even as a basketball guy, I can understand that this is the type of play for which an ump cannot ask for help. He loses credibility simply by asking, whether he was right or wrong and whether the call is changed or not.

You just don't get it
 

Please read this before it gets deleted for whatever reason I don't have clue.

You (and Kevin) should "have a clue."

It's because every conversation between you two turns into a pissing match.

If you (and he) want to comment on the OP, please do so. Just don't talk to or about each other.

And what do you as an official do when you know you got the call right! Consult your crew to see if there is any difference of opinions? Joyce certainly thought he got the call right......why on earth would he consult with his crew when he knew he had the right call?

Based on your other posts I can see you have no clue as to what an umpires responsibilities are......or for that fact...how to be an umpire......lol

So stupid a post I had to log in to respond.....

Joel

He isn't an umpire. He is a fan who is upset that the umpires didn't get together and sing Cumbaya on a safe/out judgment call. Any umpire (except the fool that overruled me last season) would know that it's just not done.

you can't tell me that Joyce didn't know that the pitcher had a perfect game going

Undoubtedly Joyce knew, but one guy who, back in 1956, didn't know a perfect game was in the works was a fella named Don Larsen. He knew he had a no-hitter going, but he was unaware that there was such a thing as a perfect game until it was explained to him after the game.