Ozzie's at it again.....

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by greymule

But the line from home to the pitcher's plate and the line from the pitcher's plate to 1B are at an angle of greater than 90 degrees.

For the angle to be 90 degrees, the pitcher's plate would have to be halfway between home and 2B, directly on the 1B-3B line. But the "rubber" is a yard in front of that line.

Trig, anyone?

greymule:

I agree with you.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The second balk was a no brainer, F1 stepped toward HP while throwing to 1B.

The first balk was more nuanced. I guess I was lucky when I watched the video because I thought I saw a shoulder twitch by F1 before he started his motion to the plate the very first time I saw the video and that would be a balk.

Yes, the announcers were funny and clueless.

MTD, Sr.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The second balk was a no brainer, F1 stepped toward HP while throwing to 1B.

When I first saw this from the camera angle behind him I too thought it was an easy call.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Yes, the announcers were funny and clueless.

That goes without saying.....but, you said it. Or something like that.

[SperlingPE]

1. the announcers are ridiculous
2. Guillen doesn't have a leg to stand on. West gave him an opportunity to state his case and then Guillen went back at him.
3. West wasn't showing anyone up. Buerle came at him after the first one and West backed up first but then responded to Buerle.
4. first balk, does movement in the back leg have anything to do with the call. I am a basketball official and baseball fan so educate me.
5. second balk, I agree that Buerle was moving forward before the throw to first.
6. since the runner wasn't fooled (second balk) and considering the level possible act that could be called a balk, do you pass on this? I am a basketball official and would like a fellow arbiter brother in another sport opinion.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by greymule

But the line from home to the pitcher's plate and the line from the pitcher's plate to 1B are at an angle of greater than 90 degrees.

For the angle to be 90 degrees, the pitcher's plate would have to be halfway between home and 2B, directly on the 1B-3B line. But the "rubber" is a yard in front of that line.

Trig, anyone?

Distance from front-center pitcher's plate to back corner of home plate: 60' 6"
Distance from back corner of home plate to back corner of first base: 90'
Distance from front-center of pitcher's plate to back corner of first base: 63' 8 5/8"

Angle at home plate formed by foul line and line directly to center of pitcher's plate: 45 degrees
Angle formed by foul line and line from back corner of first to front center of pitcher's plate: 42.2 degrees
Angle formed by lines from front center of pitcher's plate to back corner of home plate & from front center of pitcher's plate to back corner of first base: 92.8 degrees

So I guess its more like stepping to the 46.4.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Well... it amounts to EXACTLY 45 degrees... which is why some (many) call it the 45 degree rule. So ... there kind of is.

Uh, it's NOT EXACTLY 45 degrees. When standing on the mound, the angle between home and first is about 92.824 degrees. Halfway would be more like 46.412.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by mbyron

There is no "45 degree" rule. 8.05 requires the pitcher to step and throw to a base, and that's interpreted as stepping more toward the base than the plate. In practice, that amounts to about 45°.

You can find rule 8 (and the other 9 as well) on the mlb site:
Official Rules | MLB.com: Official info

While I know this discussion is primarily base upon OBR, in the FED casebook:

6.2.4 Sitiuation B: With R1 on first, F1 attempts a pickoff while stepping at an angle but to the home plate side. Ruling: Balk. To comply with the requirement to "step directly toward", F1 must step to the first-base side of a 45-degree angle between center of the pitcher's plate and between home and first base.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Altor

Uh, it's NOT EXACTLY 45 degrees. When standing on the mound, the angle between home and first is about 92.824 degrees. Halfway would be more like 46.412.

I stand corrected.

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by Altor

Uh, it's NOT EXACTLY 45 degrees. When standing on the mound, the angle between home and first is about 92.824 degrees. Halfway would be more like 46.412.

Beat ya, but you are more precise.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

Beat ya, but you are more precise.

I had to dust off my trigonometry knowledge. It took me a while. Once upon a time, I probably could have done it in my head (save the lookup for the arctan value).

[grunewar]

Major League Baseball investigating Chicago White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen, Mark Buehrle and umpire Joe West incident - ESPN Chicago

[johnnyg08]

First one must have been some type of start and stop. 2nd one was pretty obvious from West's angle. Those announcers are morons. "Look at West trying to get himself into the game." West put up the stop sign, Ozzie didn't stop. What is he supposed to do?

[falsecut]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

First one must have been some type of start and stop. 2nd one was pretty obvious from West's angle. Those announcers are morons. "Look at West trying to get himself into the game." West put up the stop sign, Ozzie didn't stop. What is he supposed to do?

I'm not much of a Joe West fan either, and I didn't see much on the first balk, a better case can be made for the second. But West didn't help himself in my eyes when he went over and collected the trash that Ozzie dumped out of his pockets right in front of the Sox bench. That's just stupid and instigating. You lose any chance of defusing the situation doing that.

And yes, Harrelson especially is a moron and wouldn't know a rule if it rose up and bit him. I can't wait until he retires and I can watch a game in peace. Three years ago, his ignorance was on display on an obstruction call. And of course even after it became clear what the real ruling was, he never said oops, I goofed. It was discussed on this forum in 2007.

Hawk Harrelson - Worst announcer EVER!

[johnnyg08]

It was white garbage and you're certainly not going to send PU over there. I wouldn't have done it either...but I'm not an MLB umpire nor will I ever be one.

[falsecut]

No, I don't send the PU either but the bat boy, ball girl, or a security guard can take care of it without me doing it. And my guess is it was his line up card because it looked like a 3x6 sheet of paper. Regardless, I'm not headed over there to clean it up right in front of the dug out. Don't go looking for trouble.