Balk or not

[frozenrope22]

Pitcher was taking signs while straddling the rubber but umpire didn't call balk. Between innings I questioned umpire on this point and he stated that it is only a balk if there are runners on base. Later when runners were on base he did call a balk when the pitcher took his signs while not on the rubber. I can only find in the rule book that it is a balk when pitcher takes his signs while not on a rubber. It doesn't specify with or without baserunners. Playing 13U USSSA / high school rules. Is this correct ruling?

[bigjohn]

8.05.D General Statement Concerning Balks: Umpires should bear in mind that the purpose of the balk rule is to
prevent the pitcher from deliberately deceiving the base runner. If there is doubt in the umpire’s mind, the “intent”
of the pitcher should govern. However, certain specifics should be borne in mind: (A) Straddling the pitcher’s
rubber without the ball is to be interpreted as intent to deceive and ruled a balk. (B) With a runner on first (1st)
base, the pitcher may make a complete turn, without hesitating toward first (1st) base and throw to second (2nd)
base. This is not to be interpreted as throwing to an unoccupied base. (C) In age divisions 9U & 10U, pitchers
should be allowed some leniency in regards to balks. Pitchers should be called for all major violations and warned
for minor violations that do not affect the outcome of a play. (D) In age divisions 11U – 18U, balks shall be strictly
enforced without warning.
http://www.usssabaseball.org/documen..._Jan1_2010.pdf

[BK47]

To me that is a hard one to both buy and sell. If I am behind the plate I have really no idea if the pitcher is taking signs or not. I can have some sort of guess but thats all it is, just a guess and I can not penalize for that. That would be a very hard sell to any coach. The only one who could really see that is a BU.

I had that in a game a few years ago and I just looked at the manager and told him "How am I supposed to know what they are doing, I am behind the catcher". End of conversation. However I do try to explain to the both catchers at the begining of the game to not give signs to his pitcher until the batter is in the box and ready to go. Most pitchers are on the rubber and ready before the batter anyway.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by frozenrope22

Pitcher was taking signs while straddling the rubber but umpire didn't call balk. Between innings I questioned umpire on this point and he stated that it is only a balk if there are runners on base. Later when runners were on base he did call a balk when the pitcher took his signs while not on the rubber. I can only find in the rule book that it is a balk when pitcher takes his signs while not on a rubber. It doesn't specify with or without baserunners. Playing 13U USSSA / high school rules. Is this correct ruling?

Yes. Taking signs off the rubber is not legal, but it is also not a balk.

The rule states that if the pitcher takes signs, he must take them while on the rubber. The purpose of the rule is to prevent a quick pitch, which is a balk with runners on base.

The umpire should have called time, instructed F1 to take his signs from the rubber, and then resumed play. Depending on the level, a conversation with his coach might be in order. If F1 fails to comply, he should be ejected for that (nuclear option).

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I will not address NCAA and OBR, but I will address NFHS:

It is NOT a balk for the pitcher to take signs from anyone from anywhere while NOT in contact with the pitcher's plate. It is a balk to quick pitch (to engage the pitcher's plate and immediately pitch the ball before taking or simulate taking his sign from the catcher); this IS a balk.

For those who say that the NFHS Illustrated Baseball Rules Book say that it is a a balk, the Illustrated Rules Book is WRONG. A personal friend, who is high school baseball umpire and who is a past member of the NFHS Baseball Rules Committee, has stated many times that the Illustrated Rules Book is WRONG.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. For those who wish to know who my friend is, please PM me.

P.P.S. Don't go looking for boogers to pick in this situration.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Yes. Taking signs off the rubber is not legal, but it is also not a balk.

The rule states that if the pitcher takes signs, he must take them while on the rubber. The purpose of the rule is to prevent a quick pitch, which is a balk with runners on base.

The umpire should have called time, instructed F1 to take his signs from the rubber, and then resumed play. Depending on the level, a conversation with his coach might be in order. If F1 fails to comply, he should be ejected for that (nuclear option).

It IS legal for the pitcher to take signs while not in contact with the pitcher's plate and as long as he is taking or simulate taking signs from his catcher before pitching there is no need to tell him to take or simulate taking his sign from the catcher.

The only time I am going to tell a pitcher to take or simulate taking his sign from the catcher while in contact with the pitcher's plate is when he does NOT and I have called a balk because he threw a pitch without taking or simulated taking a sign from the catcher.

As along as the pitcher is complying with the rule in the first place we, as umpires, do NOT care how many signs the pitcher takes while NOT in contact with the pitcher's plate.

MTD, Sr.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by frozenrope22

Pitcher was taking signs while straddling the rubber but umpire didn't call balk. Between innings I questioned umpire on this point and he stated that it is only a balk if there are runners on base. Later when runners were on base he did call a balk when the pitcher took his signs while not on the rubber. I can only find in the rule book that it is a balk when pitcher takes his signs while not on a rubber. It doesn't specify with or without baserunners. Playing 13U USSSA / high school rules. Is this correct ruling?

What rule book says that?

USSSA has it's own rule book - it isn't high school rules.

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

... I have called a balk because he threw a pitch without taking or simulated taking a sign from the catcher.

There is no rule that says the pitcher must take any signs. Unless you deemed that F1 quick pitched, batter not reasonably set, this is not a balk.

[David B]

Originally Posted by frozenrope22

Pitcher was taking signs while straddling the rubber but umpire didn't call balk. Between innings I questioned umpire on this point and he stated that it is only a balk if there are runners on base. Later when runners were on base he did call a balk when the pitcher took his signs while not on the rubber. I can only find in the rule book that it is a balk when pitcher takes his signs while not on a rubber. It doesn't specify with or without baserunners. Playing 13U USSSA / high school rules. Is this correct ruling?

Others have already said it, but this is not a balk. The umpire should simply tell the pitcher to toe the rubber and go from there. He doesn't have to take signs, many 13yr olds don't even have F2 give signs.

Many of the leagues don't allow curves etc., so F2 knows it all fast ball.

But as long as F1 is not stepping on the rubber and pitching, a quick pitch, he is fine.

Too many coaches, AND umpires, make way too much of a deal over nothing.

My son is playing this age group now and every week I'm amazed at what is called at our games and told to our players that's the rule!!!!!

Thanks
David

[DG]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

P.S. For those who wish to know who my friend is, please PM me.

Get your friend to drop Carl a note and tell him Item 388 in the 2008 BRD is incorrect.

[frozenrope22]

I knew I had read the rule somewhere about the pitcher being on the rubber to take their sign and the umpire just reinforced it by saying only if baserunners. As I couldn't remember where I had read it I came here for help. I did find it mentioned in the MLB rules but there is no elaboration or penalty listed.

This was never a situation of quick pitch and I wasn't yelling from the dugout about the situation. When returning a foul ball to the PU between innings I asked the him about it quietly and that is when we discussed it. Later he told me he called it instead of the BU because the BU was a rookie and didn't know the rule. I guess he didn't know the rule either.

[bigjohn]

Umpires should bear in mind that the purpose of the balk rule is to
prevent the pitcher from deliberately deceiving the base runner

it says nothing about the batter.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I will not address NCAA and OBR, but I will address NFHS:

It is NOT a balk for the pitcher to take signs from anyone from anywhere while NOT in contact with the pitcher's plate. It is a balk to quick pitch (to engage the pitcher's plate and immediately pitch the ball before taking or simulate taking his sign from the catcher); this IS a balk.

For those who say that the NFHS Illustrated Baseball Rules Book say that it is a a balk, the Illustrated Rules Book is WRONG. A personal friend, who is high school baseball umpire and who is a past member of the NFHS Baseball Rules Committee, has stated many times that the Illustrated Rules Book is WRONG.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. For those who wish to know who my friend is, please PM me.

P.P.S. Don't go looking for boogers to pick in this situration.

MTD, using that annoying typeface suggests I need some assistance reading your post. Instead, it caused me to not read it.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

MTD, using that annoying typeface suggests I need some assistance reading your post. Instead, it caused me to not read it.

Dash:

You need to lighten up and go to the Basketball Forum, where you will learn that sometimes I need to let people know how I really feel.

MTD, Sr.