batter/runner unintentionally kicks blocked pitch

[TussAgee11]

I may not be remember this totally correctly, and if so I'd certainly like to get it straightened out Bob.

In regard to the rule you cited, 7.05h AR:

Notice how it says the ball "remains on the playing field". This could just as easily say "and comes to rest", because I believe that is what it is interpreted as.

If a pitch is trickling to the dugout, and the catcher leans over, stumbles, and muffs it into the dugout, its one TOP because the ball did not come to rest. If he does so intentionally, he is considered to have changed the status of the ball to a thrown ball, and two is given from the time of that deflection. Same thing goes on a ball that richocet's off the baskstop, back into the catcher, and then into DBT, 2 bases, time of deflection.

I really am almost sure of this Bob, because I think 7.05h AR (the second paragraph that is) only applies when the ball comes to rest.
If someone has J/R or JEA on this hidden away somewhere, either way, now's the time! Don't care if I'm wrong, would just like to know it.

[UmpJM]

Tuss,

From the MLBUM discussion of "Balls Deflected Out of Play":

...

(3) If a pitched ball (or a ball thrown by the pitcher while in contact with the rubber) goes through or by the catcher (or fielder), remains on the playing field, and is subsequently kicked or deflected out of play (unintentionally in either case), the award is two bases from the time of the pitch. This ruling applies without regard to whether or not the ball would have gone out of play had it not been kicked or deflected. (See the Approved Ruling to Official Baseball Rule 7.05(h).)

...

The bit about "..applies without regard to whether or not the ball woud have..." makes it clear to me that the ruling applies whether or not the ball has come to rest and that your assumption in that regard is incorrect.

J/R also has a case play that demonstrates this (Under the heading "Examples: Subsequent Push":

2----- R1. A wild pitch deflects off the catcher toward a nearby dugout. He immediately gives chase. The ball ricochets sharply off a cement wall back toward the field of play, then is redirected off the catcher's shin guard and into the dugout: susbsequnet push of the pitch. R1 is awrded 3B.

Finally, the JEA discussion of the 7.05(h) AR referenced by bob includes the following:

Thrown or pitched balls from the rubber which get by the catcher or any fielder and are subsequently deflected out of play require special attention by the umpire.

The umpire must determine whether the ball went out of play directly or was subsequently caused to go out of play.

A ball which goes directly out of play and is not subsequently touched by a fielder shall result in a one base award based on the position of the runners at the time of the pitch or throw.

A ball which goes through or by the catcher/fielder or is initially deflected by him and then subsequently kicked
or deflected into a dead ball area results in a two base award based on the position of the runner/s at the time of
the pitch.

Again, no mention of the ball coming to rest - only that it must subsequently be touched to be considered "non-direct" and worthy of a two base (rather than one base) award.

JM

[dash_riprock]

I think there's a good argument that 7.05h AR does not contemplate the batter (or B/R) causing the contact that directed the ball out of play. J/R uses "subsequent push" to determine the base award pursuant to 7.05h, and SP is defined as the action of a fielder. I vote for considering it still a pitch (or an in-contact throw) and awarding one base TOP.

It just doesn't seem right to award a runner two bases due to the actions of his teammate.

[UmpJM]

dash,

I think that's a valid question.

All of the interps I've found that support the two base award and mention WHO deflects it out of play always mention a fielder rather than a runner.

But I believe the correct interp is that you would treat it the same if it did deflect off a runner.

To me, the consistent principle is not so much who, but rather did the initial force of the pitch, as possibly modified by an initial attempt to catch the pitch, cause the ball to go out of play - or was there subsequent contact which resulted in the ball going out of play.

If the pitch "rebounds" off the catcher and is subsequently deflected out of play (unintentionally) by either the BR or a fielder, I'm going with 2, TOP.

JM

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

dash,

I think that's a valid question.

All of the interps I've found that support the two base award and mention WHO deflects it out of play always mention a fielder rather than a runner.

But I believe the correct interp is that you would treat it the same if it did deflect off a runner.

To me, the consistent principle is not so much who, but rather did the initial force of the pitch, as possibly modified by an initial attempt to catch the pitch, cause the ball to go out of play - or was there subsequent contact which resulted in the ball going out of play.

If the pitch "rebounds" off the catcher and is subsequently deflected out of play (unintentionally) by either the BR or a fielder, I'm going with 2, TOP.

What is the difference between the uncaught third strike hitting a stationary object (backstop for example) as opposed to hitting a moving object (runner in this case)? They both have deflected the ball into DBT. The fielder or catcher did not attempt anything to provide momentum.

In the three interps you provided, none whatsoever have cited any inclination to award the B/R two bases.

BTW-I don't any believe any wording in any rule book supports a TOP two base award. If you are stating you would be awarding two bases from the TOP, I think your terminology is incorrect. As I stated earlier, one from the rubber, two from the field makes much more logical sense to me.

[elly]

I had a situation where the batter unintentionally kicked dropped third strike into dugout. Using NFHS rule book I think the right call is BR (and any other runners) is awarded 1 base Here is how I got there:

When does a pitch end? Rule 2, Section 28, Art. 4 says "a pitch ends when a pitch ball is secured by the catcher, comes to rest, goes out of play, becomes dead or the batter hits the ball (fair or foul)

so,

we now go to Rule 8, Section 1, Art. 1 b ... a batter becomes a runner when
he is charged with a 3rd strike

so,

we now go to Rule 8, Section 3, Art 3 d...each runner is awarded one base if
a pitch goes into a stand or bench

There you have it.

Now if the ball had come to a rest and the BR kicked it then you have
interference.

What do you think?

[johnnyg08]

There is case play to support unintentional "kicking" right in front of home plate if Batter/Runner could not have avoided kicking the ball. If he could have avoided it, Interference.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

It just doesn't seem right to award a runner two bases due to the actions of his teammate.

I don't think that's the right way to understand what happened. For one thing, the "teammate" didn't do anything deliberately other than run to 1B. But the main point is that the ball wouldn't have been deflected at all if the pitcher and catcher had done their jobs correctly. That's 2 screw-ups by the defense to 1 by the offense!

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I don't think that's the right way to understand what happened. For one thing, the "teammate" didn't do anything deliberately other than run to 1B. But the main point is that the ball wouldn't have been deflected at all if the pitcher and catcher had done their jobs correctly. That's 2 screw-ups by the defense to 1 by the offense!

In other words, stop trying to be Solomon and just enforce the rule.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

In other words, stop trying to be Solomon and just enforce the rule.

Oh, you won't hear that kind of thing from me. I don't mind people trying to understand the rationales behind rules. That and a few decades of experience can help you learn the game.

[RPatrino]

I agree that it is very important to understand the rationale behind the rules, because it makes them more easily enforced and explained.

BTW, I am bacccccccccccccckkk! After a year off to get settled, I have finally landed in a place that I can work games again. I missed this place and I am glad to be back...

[nopachunts]

Welcome back

[DG]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I don't think that's the right way to understand what happened. For one thing, the "teammate" didn't do anything deliberately other than run to 1B. But the main point is that the ball wouldn't have been deflected at all if the pitcher and catcher had done their jobs correctly. That's 2 screw-ups by the defense to 1 by the offense!

I would count 1 defensive screw-up on a wild pitch and 0 for the BR.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by DG

I would count 1 defensive screw-up on a wild pitch and 0 for the BR.

As the arithmeticians say, same difference.

[Forest Ump]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

BTW, I am bacccccccccccccckkk! After a year off to get settled, I have finally landed in a place that I can work games again. I missed this place and I am glad to be back...

Great to hear that all is falling into place for you Bob. You were my original mentor. I still have notes from games you and I worked together. BTW, I'm starting JUCO ball this year. Happy New Year.