My answer: POTEDO #2

[Warren Willson]

quote:

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Originally posted by PeteBooth:

I would argue this way - once the ball goes into dead ball territory we do not let play continue. During a Mets game about a week ago or so, Benny Agbayani of the Mets forgot how many outs there were.

He caught a fly ball and thought there were 3 outs but there were only 2. As is customary at least at Shea lately is the players after the 3rd out is made throw the ball into the stands. Benny threw the ball into the stands and when he realized there were only 2 outs instead of 3 reached back into the stand to retrieve it.

However, once the ball went into the stands, the umpires called the ball dead and made the appropriate awards.

Therefore, my argument would be the player once entering the duggout is in dead ball territory and therefore, should not be allowed to come back out and rectify his mistake.

Pete Booth

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Pete:

The rules draw a significant distinction between a ball that is thrown or batted into dead ball territory (your example) and a ball that is carried into dead ball territory (this play).

In the former case, the ball is certainly dead. In the latter case, however, the ball is alive and in play. What's more, Pete, the dugout is treated very differently to all other areas of dead ball territory (DBT). That is the whole point of the casebook comments to OBR 7.04(c).

Any player who legally catches a fly ball and unintentionally enters DBT on the momentum of making the catch is also allowed to make a following play by throwing the ball from DBT. This is because the ball is still alive and in play. If your premise about the ball being dead when it is carried into DBT were true, this play could not occur.

In the case in point, if the runner is allowed to return from the dugout to correct his baserunning error (PBUC ruling vide Cris Jones and Wendelstadt interpretation vide Baseball America) then the catcher must also be allowed to pursue him even into the dugout to make the out. OBR 7.10(d) does not REQUIRE him to appeal by tagging home plate, it only allows F2 that OPTION to avoid him having to chase the runner.

This F2 chose to ignore the OBR 7.10(d) OPTION (who knows why), but that shouldn't operate to deprive the defense of a legitimate out for the offensive baserunning error. Also, since entering the dugout after reaching home base is NOT considered abandonment of the base paths, the runner must also be allowed a legitimate opportunity to correct his error within a reasonable time period. If the umpire adjudges that the runner was too long in the dugout, he might instead refuse to allow a correction and sustain an appeal. That is down to umpire judgement, according to Jones and the PBUC.

In short, Pete, your example doesn't hold water against either the rules or the PBUC interpretation. Sorry.

Cheers, mate.

Warren Willson

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Member and Co-Moderator, UT