Why do we do that?

[FVB_Ryan]

My mind started wandering (while still being able to concentrate...i can do that....some times :-) ) after making a call the other night. A ball was hit high in the air to left field. I'm PU, watching for fair/foul, cuz it can go either way. Left fielder comes on, and makes an easy catch. I signal fair, then out. But then I got to wondering, why do we need to signal fair/foul if its caught in flight? Does fair or foul really even make a difference at that point? Once out, the runner can tag whether fair or foul. I have a feeling that someone is going to post a VERY logical explanation, and I'm gonna feel like a fool for asking such a stupid question, but I'm up for it tonight.

[greymule]

I thought it was purely for scoring purposes.

[bluezebra]

Originally posted by greymule
I thought it was purely for scoring purposes.

Correct!

[FVB_Ryan]

Yup I was right, Now I feel like a fool. That makes perfect sense. Most of the games I do so far have a kid's mom, or a player's wife keeping score, so htat never even crossed my mind. Thanks for the help though.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by FVB_Ryan
My mind started wandering (while still being able to concentrate...i can do that....some times :-) ) after making a call the other night. A ball was hit high in the air to left field. I'm PU, watching for fair/foul, cuz it can go either way. Left fielder comes on, and makes an easy catch. I signal fair, then out. But then I got to wondering, why do we need to signal fair/foul if its caught in flight? Does fair or foul really even make a difference at that point? Once out, the runner can tag whether fair or foul. I have a feeling that someone is going to post a VERY logical explanation, and I'm gonna feel like a fool for asking such a stupid question, but I'm up for it tonight.

IF it becomes caught, then it doesn't matter (except for scoring).

But, it's not caught as soon as it's touched -- so it might become dropped. If it does, then the fair / foul determination will become very important -- and it's better to make that call as soon as fair / foul is determined rather than later. THe ball will almost always be in foul territory by the time it's dropped, so it looks kind of strange (read: you'll get questioned) if you point it fair at that time.

[Whowefoolin]

IT AIN'T FOR SCORING PURPOSES!!!! Whoever tells you that is going with the "tie goes to the runner" theory also.

It is only to let people (i.e., coaches, fans, players, etc...) know where the relationship to the ball and field was.

How do you mark down a caught fly ball by F3 in "fair" territory different for a caught fly ball by F3 in "foul" territory in the scorebook? You don't! Same same.

It is just for letting everyone in the ballpark know it was a close play.

[bluezebra]

Originally posted by Whowefoolin
IT AIN'T FOR SCORING PURPOSES!!!! Whoever tells you that is going with the "tie goes to the runner" theory also.

It is only to let people (i.e., coaches, fans, players, etc...) know where the relationship to the ball and field was.

How do you mark down a caught fly ball by F3 in "fair" territory different for a caught fly ball by F3 in "foul" territory in the scorebook? You don't! Same same.

It is just for letting everyone in the ballpark know it was a close play.

It's simple. Just like your mind. You put a small "f" for foul next to the out. "Ff-3"

And, who else but the official scorer needs to know if the ball was fair or foul? Except those of us who keep score for our pleasure, or for writing-up the game for a newspaper. Fair or foul doesn't change the status of a runner trying to advance.

And what "close play" is involved on a caught fly ball? It's not a "banger" at 1B. Coaches and players (at least those with brains) know the runner can take off after the catch (or touch), so the pointing doesn't help them. Probably 99% of the fans know if the ball was fair or foul, so unless they keep score, who cares.

Bob

[Tim C]

I think it is interesting when we get involved in these "off the beaten track" discussions that Bob Jenkins always seems to have the correct answer.

Now I will certainly give BlueZebra Bob the resepect for his comments on scoring. It would be hard for me to believe that ANYONE has scored (offically and at home -- Aside, the BEST Keith Obermann line ever on SportsCenter, "For those of you scoring at home -- GOOD!") more games than I have and I have never heard of ANY scorer marking if a fly out was fair or foul BUT in these days of SABR math I pass that decision to Bob.

Ryan, our priorities for a call (as we all know) is "Fair/Foul", FIRST. When any fly ball is taking a fielder towards the line it is imparative that we signal FAIR/FOUL first. This will save you in the long term when the fielder juggles the ball several times as he is on, near, or crossing the line.

"Fair/Foul, catch/no catch" were developed over the years for a reason. Trust me it has nuttin' to do with scoring and everything to do with helping the umpire keep a priority that insures a consistant performance every time.

[JJ]

OK - here's another "stupid" question: Why do we indicate a foul tip on strike one or strike two with nobody on base? Does it really matter? Why indicate a "catch" at all on the routine fly balls that everyone sees are catches? Why indicate outs on ground balls that everyone knows are outs?
Sorry...my season is about over and I'm grasping at "stupid" straws...I'm going to have a(nother) cold one and find the la-z-boy...

[Tim C]

We have discussed this amoung a group of which I am a member.

There is absolutely NO REASON to signal Foul Tip at any time.

It is just tradition and accepted practice. PapaC suggested that umpires eliminate and see what happened.

During my last year in Portland I did not signal Foul Tip one time . . . no one noticed. Not even my partners.

Lah Me.

[Clint]

Antoher good reason For calling fair/foul befoe catch/no catch would be R3 and hit deep to left on the foul line...R3 taggs up and scores...coach asks you if it was fair or foul this way he knows if the fielder should of caught it (if he lets it drop foul no run scores). But you payed no attention because you didn't think it mattered...uh oh now what?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Tim C
We have discussed this amoung a group of which I am a member.

There is absolutely NO REASON to signal Foul Tip at any time.

The only time I signal a Foul Tip is when there was a check swing or no swing. It happened once this year. No comments on only signalling a strike on the other foul tips.

Hmmm ... thinking about this, I suppose it would be good to signal the Foul Tip if the ball bounced first on a strike three (since the runner can't advance), or if a foot was out of the box (to indicate a hit ball; then signal the batter out).

Of course, these last two will "never" happen.

[Whowefoolin]

Bluezebra...get a life. Come on my man. This isn't that big of a deal to call yourself out on an internationally read board and subliminally call yourself an "***".

I have never, and probably will never, see a scorekeeper put down an fF-3 next to an out.

I ask, "hey, how did lil' Johnny get out?" Most folks say, "oh, he popped up to lil' Larry at first base."

In your world, they would say, "hey, how did lil' Johnny get out?", and you would say, "oh he popped up to Larry playing on the line to take away the inside curve ball and AND IT WAS IN FOUL TERRITORRY BECAUSE I SAW THE UMPIRE SIGNAL IT. AND YOU KNOW, I AM AN UMPIRE TOO, AND KNOW IT ALL!"

So easy hoss. Don't get to wrapped up in your hobby. And if this is a hobby for you...get a new one less demanding on your blood pressure...like knitting.

[Rich]

If you don't care about scoring, look below the parentheses.

(When I score games, a fair fly ball gets no designation -- a fly ball to center is simply scored: 8

A foul fly ball, I put an F in front of it. So a foul pop to the first baseman gets an F3, a fair pop to the first baseman is simply scored: 3 (whereas an unassisted putout by F3 is scored 3U).

I've scored many games at the college and high school levels, and this has always worked for me. YMMV. Everyone scores differently :-) )

Now, we don't do any special signaling for scorekeepers. The fair or foul call comes before the "out" or "no catch" call (if the ball isn't routine -- if it is a routine catch, I'll signal only foul or fair with no out signal) because of the reason Bob Jenkins gave. It would look really bad if the ball hit off the glove and was 10 feel foul before the umpire signaled. We simply call it in the order it happens. It is foul or fair before it is caught or not caught).

Rich