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-   -   WTF Just Happened at 3rd NY vs LAA (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/55090-wtf-just-happened-3rd-ny-vs-laa.html)

scarolinablue Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:40am
Terrible hustle and positioning on the tag play on Swisher. Way, way too close to make that call. I can't believe he upheld the appeal. He was absolutely out of position.

On the double tag at third, I do believe he got straightlined a bit, but I still don't think it was that hard of a call. It was a heckuva a play by Napoli to recognize he could get two outs.

And please, don't offer excuses as to why you missed it. You missed it, and should just leave it at that. Doing otherwise cuts your credibility. Methinks he's lost enough of his at this point. Nice career, maybe it's time to open up a spot for the Drakes and Gucciones of the world.

KJUmp Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkumpire (Post 631993)
I posted this on another thread, I wonder if this is what happened on the play at 3B:

Third, on the play at 3B, IMO two bad things happened.
A. he got straightlined by Posada when he steeped off 3B. There was little chance he could see the 2nd tag from where he was. Should he have moved further? Maybe, but at least he had the guts to call what he saw and assumed something happened that he didn't see.
B. The problem with his call on the whole play may be something all of us can learn from. Since I am not God, I cannot go into Tim's mind to find out what he was thinking. But I would almost be willing to bet that he assumed a certain normal call he has called hundreds of time was going on. Instead, there was a call that happens, what, once in a career?

The teaching point is that you can never assume what will happen at a play, you have to try and keep your mind focused on what is going on in front of your eyes.
I know a lot of us veterans will at times assume something like this: We think this pitch will be off the plate, so we mentally call the pitch a ball. But, then the pitch hits the corner, but we assumed it was a ball, so we ball it anyway.

How many times will anyone see that call in their career on the MLB level? Once, maybe. It was a weird play, and I'll bet you dollars to donuts he either didn't see Posada get tagged, or he made a mental mistake in assuming only R2 would vacate 3B when R3 returned.

Great play by the F2, he was on the ball, and U3 missed it.

BTW, the conversation with Sicosia and Jerry Lane was enlightening too, but I wish Fox had not broadcast it. That kind of inside baseball needs to be left on the field, and Lane was dead on right to let the Anaheim F2 know he needed to give a look.

The later commentary by McCarver about it was nuts, some of the most stupid stuff I ever heard him say. "Yeah, F2 is thinking about what the HP umpire said, so he ends up misplaying a ball for a passed ball. Right.

Comments?
Great point.
Yes, everything that's been said about it being a bad call, inexcusable,lack of hustle/focus, need for replay etc.is true......jk has hit the nail on the head as to what we can take away from the situation to help us in our own games.

PeteBooth Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:46am
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty (Post 632044)
This is the worst call I have ever seen in a high-profile game for sure. Again, that's my opinion based on what is soon to become 45 years of following major league baseball. The worst.

What makes it inexcusable? Laziness and disinterest in a job that pays $400,000 per year with three months off and he can't put out. That's what makes it inexcusable.

It's pathetic. These games are important. And this profession is too dignified to have it be represented this way at what is supposed to be its highest level.
Kevin we can ALL bit** and moan but IMO, the REAL CULPRIT is MLB themselves.

We have had some threads in the past about the minor league umpiring system. We talked about the strike etc.

UNTIL MLB INVESTS time and money in the minor league system we will not get the BEST of the BEST.

You cannot tell me there isn't some qulaity talent in the minor league system waiting for their chance. The problem for the vast majority is they NEVER get that chance and simply receive a letter from MLB telling them their services are no longer required.

In past threads about this issue, I believe the salaries of a minor league umpire were posted. It was PEANUTS. You can make more money being a manager at Wal-Mart then you can if you are UIC of Triple A.

You are correct what is needed is better umpiring which means MLB will have to take an INTEREST. Until then we will continue to see the Cuzzi's . McLelonds etc. of the world who continue to advance, get high profile playoff games regardless of performance.


Pete Booth

Umpmazza Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty (Post 632060)
To err is human. So is to be lazy and uninspired, even though you command an astronomical salary. It's inexcusable.

McClelland should have one word at the front of his mind: pension.
Why do you think he is lazy and uninspired? just cause he cant move as well as some of the younger guys? I wouldn't say he doesn't want to be there.

chuckfan1 Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve (Post 632036)
They still are not supposed to show replays of extremely close or controversial calls in the stadiums. I don't know why they are violating this policy.
They are not supposed to and they didnt , nothing has changed. Nothing was violated. They are not supposed to show controversial plays on the scoreboards, big screens etc....and they didnt.
The crowd was reacting to seeing it on tvs throughtout the stadium. In the luxery boxes, concession stands, and the tvs placed around the concourse on the inside....as at all stadiums.
Nothing was shown on the two main boards....

Kevin Finnerty Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteBooth (Post 632068)
Kevin we can ALL bit** and moan but IMO, the REAL CULPRIT is MLB themselves.

We have had some threads in the past about the minor league umpiring system. We talked about the strike etc.

UNTIL MLB INVESTS time and money in the minor league system we will not get the BEST of the BEST.

You cannot tell me there isn't some qulaity talent in the minor league system waiting for their chance. The problem for the vast majority is they NEVER get that chance and simply receive a letter from MLB telling them their services are no longer required.

In past threads about this issue, I believe the salaries of a minor league umpire were posted. It was PEANUTS. You can make more money being a manager at Wal-Mart then you can if you are UIC of Triple A.

You are correct what is needed is better umpiring which means MLB will have to take an INTEREST. Until then we will continue to see the Cuzzi's . McLelonds etc. of the world who continue to advance, get high profile playoff games regardless of performance.


Pete Booth
Pete, you are 100 percent correct. And you can change a couple of words and you have described the problem with the training and production of players as well. MLB does a laughably small part of what it should to better the game from which they profit so obscenely.

Umpmazza Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckfan1 (Post 632086)
They are not supposed to and they didnt , nothing has changed. Nothing was violated. They are not supposed to show controversial plays on the scoreboards, big screens etc....and they didnt.
The crowd was reacting to seeing it on tvs throughtout the stadium. In the luxery boxes, concession stands, and the tvs placed around the concourse on the inside....as at all stadiums.
Nothing was shown on the two main boards....
are you telling me 45K people were at the snack bar at the same time watching the replay? for 2 times this week I have to agree with steve here..LOL

JRutledge Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:28am
This was about as bad of a call by an official that I have ever seen. This is not something I would expect a 2 man crew to miss. If a guy like this cannot get this call right no matter the situation, it is time to bring up someone else to work these games. These are two of the worst calls I have seen in my life (the first being the foul ball call in the Minnesota series). I do not get how guys have less places to go on the field and more umpires cannot get this simple play right. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...onfused005.gif

Peace

Kevin Finnerty Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umpmazza (Post 632070)
Why do you think he is lazy and uninspired? just cause he cant move as well as some of the younger guys? I wouldn't say he doesn't want to be there.
He has 400,000 reasons to be there every year.

It's not about "moving well." How well do you need to move to be in position on that fly ball? While that ball's in the air, my 81-year-old father can move 30 feet. How about taking a step TO SEE THE BAG AND THE TAG OF CANO?!? The guy's 6'7''; a half a step might have done it!

It's laziness and lack of interest. These games are important.

I-N-E-X-C-U-S-A-B-L-E

Rich Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umpmazza (Post 632070)
Why do you think he is lazy and uninspired? just cause he cant move as well as some of the younger guys? I wouldn't say he doesn't want to be there.
Yes, that's exactly it. He doesn't move. The job requires it. Until MLB can replace guys with younger umpires who do the job, this will continue to happen. I loved watching Bruce Froemming, but he should've been moved out 15 years or more before he retired.

It's time being a ML umpire isn't treated as a lifetime appointment. Hire people who have educations and other careers they can fall back on and stop giving the chosen few jobs for life.

btdt Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:41am
I choose to use the mistakes of others at any level as a learning tool for myself. Especially all levels of professional ball. If it can happen to them, it can happen to me. .......

I don't see how it could improve my abilities by ragging on them over and over. It is obvious to everyone it was an unfortunate situation by long time quality umpires.

How can I avoid being involved in a similar situation and if I do get involved in a similar situation, what should I do?
What caused these situations in the first place?

I prefer to leave most of the b.s. to the t.v. guys and others who have no idea how to umpire.

JR12 Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty (Post 632060)
To err is human. So is to be lazy and uninspired, even though you command an astronomical salary. It's inexcusable.

McClelland should have one word at the front of his mind: pension.
yup, Kevin. As a good friend of mine says "No more tension, I'll take my pension"

JRutledge Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 632104)
Yes, that's exactly it. He doesn't move. The job requires it. Until MLB can replace guys with younger umpires who do the job, this will continue to happen. I loved watching Bruce Froemming, but he should've been moved out 15 years or more before he retired.

It's time being a ML umpire isn't treated as a lifetime appointment. Hire people who have educations and other careers they can fall back on and stop giving the chosen few jobs for life.
I completely agree. They eliminate a lot of qualified people because they only give people jobs that have nothing to lose once they get there.

Peace

Kevin Finnerty Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by btdt (Post 632109)
I choose to use the mistakes of others at any level as a learning tool for myself. Especially all levels of professional ball. If it can happen to them, it can happen to me. .......

I don't see how it could improve my abilities by ragging on them over and over. It is obvious to everyone it was an unfortunate situation by long time quality umpires.

How can I avoid being involved in a similar situation and if I do get involved in a similar situation, what should I do?
What caused these situations in the first place?

I prefer to leave most of the b.s. to the t.v. guys and others who have no idea how to umpire.
It's not b.s. It's cogent and well-informed criticism. It's also genuine. We love baseball and umpiring and we believe that the practitioners of the craft at its very highest level should perform their job better than this.

I learn from everyone, and I recognize and appreciate the value of both exceptional work and shoddy work. A public figure willingly places himself in a position to be criticized by the masses. That's what is at play when the work of someone like Tim McClelland is blasted like this.

Eastshire Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:01pm
It's not that he missed it that bothers me. It's that he missed it because he was out of position that bothers me.

Almost every blown call I see made by an MLB ump is due to poor mechanics or positioning. He was out of position and couldn't even see the bag or the tag, so he had to guess and he guessed wrong.

Same deal with the foul ball call in the earlier series. The ump was moving and not on the line to begin with.

If they actually put the effort into proper mechanics, we wouldn't see this rash of blown calls.


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