WTF Just Happened at 3rd NY vs LAA
 

I don't do baseball but in College Softball I have two outs.

Yes, definitely. That's two boots tonight for McClelland. Swisher clearly tagged up.

In the real world we all do. For some reason McClelland botched it. Big time.

Serious question: why does it seem ALL the horribly botched calls go in the Yankees favor? Fuel for the conspiracy theorists, I'm sure.

Has to make some wonder.

I am nearly at a loss for words on this one. I can't remember a worse call by an umpire at any level. Just awful.

Just asking because as the resident ump my family always comes to me. I tell them I know nothing about BB, but they don't understand that there is a difference.

If MLB had instant replay.....for any/all circumstances......it would be a very long game. But, a couple of calls would probably be changed.

This will be an interesting finish if the Angels mount a comeback as the Yankee base running has been horrible too.

I hate the idea of instant replay. I would just like to see calls like this that aren't even close get called right.

How about better umpiring?

McClelland apparently is too good to have to hustle and move his feet. I think he blew that one because he was blocked by Posada and couldn't see Cano's foot was off the bag.

Looked like he was still standing in the same spot from the TOP.

Just plain lazy, but at least he is being consistent.

IMHO, he should have asked a partner if they saw anything different. I bet Layne saw R2 way off the bag.

Impact on the game was worse in the game where Twins fair batted ball ruled foul down LF line preventing a run from scoring. Game went extra innings and they lost.

Oh yeah, now I remember one!:rolleyes:

I posted this on another thread, I wonder if this is what happened on the play at 3B:

Third, on the play at 3B, IMO two bad things happened.
A. he got straightlined by Posada when he steeped off 3B. There was little chance he could see the 2nd tag from where he was. Should he have moved further? Maybe, but at least he had the guts to call what he saw and assumed something happened that he didn't see.
B. The problem with his call on the whole play may be something all of us can learn from. Since I am not God, I cannot go into Tim's mind to find out what he was thinking. But I would almost be willing to bet that he assumed a certain normal call he has called hundreds of time was going on. Instead, there was a call that happens, what, once in a career?

The teaching point is that you can never assume what will happen at a play, you have to try and keep your mind focused on what is going on in front of your eyes.

I know a lot of us veterans will at times assume something like this: We think this pitch will be off the plate, so we mentally call the pitch a ball. But, then the pitch hits the corner, but we assumed it was a ball, so we ball it anyway.

How many times will anyone see that call in their career on the MLB level? Once, maybe. It was a weird play, and I'll bet you dollars to donuts he either didn't see Posada get tagged, or he made a mental mistake in assuming only R2 would vacate 3B when R3 returned.

Great play by the F2, he was on the ball, and U3 missed it.

BTW, the conversation with Sicosia and Jerry Lane was enlightening too, but I wish Fox had not broadcast it. That kind of inside baseball needs to be left on the field, and Lane was dead on right to let the Anaheim F2 know he needed to give a look.

The later commentary by McCarver about it was nuts, some of the most stupid stuff I ever heard him say. "Yeah, F2 is thinking about what the HP umpire said, so he ends up misplaying a ball for a passed ball. Right.

Comments?

Let the apologists come up with their McClelland excuses ... you just said it all.

Let's just forget excusing it; let's instead try to come up with a worse call that we've ever seen.

Let's make it easier. Let's limit it to the last 50 years.

I-N-E-X-C-U-S-A-B-L-E

All of you guys have also said it all before many times. Worst call ever, inexcusable...it goes on and on every time there is a missed call. Are the calls actually getting worse? It is sort of odd how the "worst call ever" always seems to be the latest missed call.

Yep, he obviously got the play wrong. One can see how he could have missed that R3 was not on the base. We all know that missed calls happen. What makes one missed call excusable and another inexcusable?

Tim McClelland's response in his own words (select "Umpire Blunders in 4th Game")....

New York Yankees vs. Los Angeles Angels - Recap - October 20, 2009 - ESPN

Did no one (Angles) ask Tim if he would get help from his partners? I would have done so if I felt I was screened from the tag in a situation like this...

I'm not disagreeing with you, just saying.......

I've attended alot of MLB games and it used to be if there was a close play they wouldn't show the replay in the stadium to "incite the fans." Now, it seems like the thing to do...... Rough night.

Quicker link: 2009 ALCS: Three umpire errors in Game 4 of the ALCS point to the need to expand instant replay -- MLB Playoffs - ESPN

Juggler - the article is spot on and pulls no punches. As it states, we'll have to see what changes are enacted this winter.......

I can see your points, but watching it on ESPN this morning, the bottomline is that he called something that he did not see. They even showed his eyes and he was 1)way too close to the play, (did not hustle at all), and 2) he was looking at the catch and never looked at the runner.

His comment was what was horrible, when he said "I thought in my heart that he left early, but according to the replay I was wrong"

Even amateur umpires are and should be taught, only call what you "see", not what you thought you saw especially on a play like this.

Umpires looking really bad this fall in postseason, they just showed the play at second also on the pickoff and he was out by a foot. Again the umpire was too close to the play. I know they are the MLB's best and I am not, but mechanics are the key no matter what level.

And of course, the "replay idiots" are having a big time with this as we know there is no way replay will ever work in baseball.

But based on what I'm hearing, it might be forced into implementation, and that is sad.

Thanks
David

Worst play ever? Doug Eddings is glad you have a short memory. :rolleyes:

They still are not supposed to show replays of extremely close or controversial calls in the stadiums. I don't know why they are violating this policy.

I too get calls from friends and family about rules and calls when they are watching a baseball game. Usually the missed calls are easy to defend when you have to watch it in slo-mo, from 4 different angles. However this post season anyone (even the guy with the Bob Uecker nose bleed seats) can see these blown calls aren't even close. I am usually the guy who defends these guys. They are the BEST. I am not close to their level, but what is going on in these 2 series???

YouTube - Bob Uecker "Mr. Baseball" - Beer Commercial

This is the worst call I have ever seen in a high-profile game for sure. Again, that's my opinion based on what is soon to become 45 years of following major league baseball. The worst.

What makes it inexcusable? Laziness and disinterest in a job that pays $400,000 per year with three months off and he can't put out. That's what makes it inexcusable.

It's pathetic. These games are important. And this profession is too dignified to have it be represented this way at what is supposed to be its highest level.

Is he not suppose to look a the catch, if your lined up right you wont have to move your head, everything will be right in front of you to see....the catch, and tag up.. all right there in front...

Im not defending Tim, as he did have a bad night, but are you telling me that all of us amateur umpires on here never miss calls? Im sure you do, you just dont have 40 camera angles in HD to look at every single play to tell if they got it right on your LL field...... Yes football has a replay system, baseball does not need it.

This is the problem, we have become so used to replay that know it is hurting the umpires.. if you were at the game watching live the call at 2nd, you would have never known if it was right or wrong..and swisher leaving early you might have seen that... these guys are human and will make mistakes.

David, I think I'm right about his thinking
 

Here is Tim's quote: 2009 ALCS: Three umpire errors in Game 4 point to the need to expand instant replay -- MLB Playoffs - ESPN

McClelland, however, did not see what everyone else in the park and watching on TV saw.

"I thought Cano was on the base," McClelland said. "I was waiting for two players to be on the base, and then there was never the situation where both of them were on the base at the same time. When [Napoli] tagged Cano, I thought Cano was on the base, and when [Napoli] tagged Posada out, I thought Posada was out.

"[The replay] showed that Cano was off the bag when he was tagged. I did not see that for whatever reason. So obviously there were two missed calls. Obviously or not obviously, but there were two missed calls. And I'm just out there trying to do my job and do it the best I can."

He didn't see it because he assumed something was going to happen and it didn't. And he didn't do the things he should of to see the play because of it. That is a veteran umpire making a mental error.

So IMO, the instant replay expansion stuff is not a good idea. To err is human, no matter how much $$$ you get paid.

Maybe they felt the rules didn't apply last night, since the plays weren't close.

At least there's no more discussion about the neighborhood play, so that's something.

You never want to see an ump miss calls in such a high profile game, but the reality is that if it's going to happen, kicking a few in a situation where the calls had virtually no effect on the outcome is not a bad thing. You can bet that all of the crews will be hustling and alert from now on in games where it might matter.

The one that's befuddling to me is the appeal at third. Don't you have to be sure to make that call? I think the Angels sold that one big time.

To err is human. So is to be lazy and uninspired, even though you command an astronomical salary. It's inexcusable.

McClelland should have one word at the front of his mind: pension.

This quote is actually a bit off. McClelland actually called "Posada" by his first name during the quote twice -- using "Jorge." He didn't ever refer to the Angels by name, though -- using pronouns.

This really struck me when I saw the replay of the press conference. I'm wondering what you guys think about this. I've never umpired baseball. I understand that baseball tends to have different conventions from other sports, and that given names are frequently used on the field between players, managers and umpires. You really wouldn't hear this in other sports, where officials would tend to use numbers or positions or simply "the defender" or something like that describe a play.

I found McClelland's use of the names during his press conference to indicate a level of informality. I'm sure his use of names for yankees but not angels was coincidence, but it's something for the conspiracy theories. I don't care for it, but again I understand baseball is unique in its conventions in this regard.

I'm sure this has something to do with Jorge being a catcher.

Terrible hustle and positioning on the tag play on Swisher. Way, way too close to make that call. I can't believe he upheld the appeal. He was absolutely out of position.

On the double tag at third, I do believe he got straightlined a bit, but I still don't think it was that hard of a call. It was a heckuva a play by Napoli to recognize he could get two outs.

And please, don't offer excuses as to why you missed it. You missed it, and should just leave it at that. Doing otherwise cuts your credibility. Methinks he's lost enough of his at this point. Nice career, maybe it's time to open up a spot for the Drakes and Gucciones of the world.

Great point.
Yes, everything that's been said about it being a bad call, inexcusable,lack of hustle/focus, need for replay etc.is true......jk has hit the nail on the head as to what we can take away from the situation to help us in our own games.

Kevin we can ALL bit** and moan but IMO, the REAL CULPRIT is MLB themselves.

We have had some threads in the past about the minor league umpiring system. We talked about the strike etc.

UNTIL MLB INVESTS time and money in the minor league system we will not get the BEST of the BEST.

You cannot tell me there isn't some qulaity talent in the minor league system waiting for their chance. The problem for the vast majority is they NEVER get that chance and simply receive a letter from MLB telling them their services are no longer required.

In past threads about this issue, I believe the salaries of a minor league umpire were posted. It was PEANUTS. You can make more money being a manager at Wal-Mart then you can if you are UIC of Triple A.

You are correct what is needed is better umpiring which means MLB will have to take an INTEREST. Until then we will continue to see the Cuzzi's . McLelonds etc. of the world who continue to advance, get high profile playoff games regardless of performance.


Pete Booth

Why do you think he is lazy and uninspired? just cause he cant move as well as some of the younger guys? I wouldn't say he doesn't want to be there.

They are not supposed to and they didnt , nothing has changed. Nothing was violated. They are not supposed to show controversial plays on the scoreboards, big screens etc....and they didnt.
The crowd was reacting to seeing it on tvs throughtout the stadium. In the luxery boxes, concession stands, and the tvs placed around the concourse on the inside....as at all stadiums.
Nothing was shown on the two main boards....

Pete, you are 100 percent correct. And you can change a couple of words and you have described the problem with the training and production of players as well. MLB does a laughably small part of what it should to better the game from which they profit so obscenely.

are you telling me 45K people were at the snack bar at the same time watching the replay? for 2 times this week I have to agree with steve here..LOL

This was about as bad of a call by an official that I have ever seen. This is not something I would expect a 2 man crew to miss. If a guy like this cannot get this call right no matter the situation, it is time to bring up someone else to work these games. These are two of the worst calls I have seen in my life (the first being the foul ball call in the Minnesota series). I do not get how guys have less places to go on the field and more umpires cannot get this simple play right. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...onfused005.gif

Peace

He has 400,000 reasons to be there every year.

It's not about "moving well." How well do you need to move to be in position on that fly ball? While that ball's in the air, my 81-year-old father can move 30 feet. How about taking a step TO SEE THE BAG AND THE TAG OF CANO?!? The guy's 6'7''; a half a step might have done it!

It's laziness and lack of interest. These games are important.

I-N-E-X-C-U-S-A-B-L-E

Yes, that's exactly it. He doesn't move. The job requires it. Until MLB can replace guys with younger umpires who do the job, this will continue to happen. I loved watching Bruce Froemming, but he should've been moved out 15 years or more before he retired.

It's time being a ML umpire isn't treated as a lifetime appointment. Hire people who have educations and other careers they can fall back on and stop giving the chosen few jobs for life.

I choose to use the mistakes of others at any level as a learning tool for myself. Especially all levels of professional ball. If it can happen to them, it can happen to me. .......

I don't see how it could improve my abilities by ragging on them over and over. It is obvious to everyone it was an unfortunate situation by long time quality umpires.

How can I avoid being involved in a similar situation and if I do get involved in a similar situation, what should I do?
What caused these situations in the first place?

I prefer to leave most of the b.s. to the t.v. guys and others who have no idea how to umpire.

yup, Kevin. As a good friend of mine says "No more tension, I'll take my pension"

I completely agree. They eliminate a lot of qualified people because they only give people jobs that have nothing to lose once they get there.

Peace

It's not b.s. It's cogent and well-informed criticism. It's also genuine. We love baseball and umpiring and we believe that the practitioners of the craft at its very highest level should perform their job better than this.

I learn from everyone, and I recognize and appreciate the value of both exceptional work and shoddy work. A public figure willingly places himself in a position to be criticized by the masses. That's what is at play when the work of someone like Tim McClelland is blasted like this.

It's not that he missed it that bothers me. It's that he missed it because he was out of position that bothers me.

Almost every blown call I see made by an MLB ump is due to poor mechanics or positioning. He was out of position and couldn't even see the bag or the tag, so he had to guess and he guessed wrong.

Same deal with the foul ball call in the earlier series. The ump was moving and not on the line to begin with.

If they actually put the effort into proper mechanics, we wouldn't see this rash of blown calls.

To be fair, you can't stand on the line in the outfield. You have to start a few feet fair or you'd be screened by U3 and not be able to see the plate.

That said, not sure how he missed it.

Talking about the 2 players being tagged at third...

I found the answer in the other thread. In discussing the appeal play at third it was said that it was...

What are the odds that two of the worst calls ever would be made my the same guy during the same game? The odds are so low that I bet people just use the phrase "worst call ever" when they don't actually mean it.

I will not disagree with you on some things...:LOL But I still dont think he is not interested... maybe slow...

... ;)

Not one person I have ever encountered picks apart simple English in a more haphazard fashion than you. And based on most of your picking, you shouldn't really be trying it.

Worst Call Ever?
 

If I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times - don't exaggerate! ;)

THE WORST CALL EVER

For one, ummm, nope not telling you there were 45K at the snack bar. I was there, 2nd row, behind the photographers well, and there were no replays on any of those calls , none.
In fact, two people sitting in front of me were remarking they couldnt wait to see the replay on the Jumbotron of the tag-up play. A couple of us explained that MLB does not allow teams/stadium personal to show controversial plays. And they didnt in this case.

The reaction by the crowd was loud, but you can bet if they were shown on the scoreborads, it would have been much more....

Most everyone within a couple hundred feet could see that Cano and Posada were both off the bag when they were tagged. That's a lot of people; they can make quite a sound. Add some of the other people who were farther away that saw it easily, plus the ones watching monitors live and on replay, and you have a big-time roar.

Well, the TV announcers said on the blown pick-off of Swisher at 2nd base by Dale Scott that the fans were watching the replay on the Jumbotron and reacting to the blown call. Why would they say that if they didn't see the replay themselves along with the fans?

I cannot speak for this specific play, but I have been in arenas where controversial calls are made and they do not show them arbitrary on the Jumbotron. And I am sure someone that is there would know how the crowd reaction would be. I know when they do show a close play in other situations, the crowd goes nuts when they "think" the call has been blown. There was no question in this case. And I do not know why anyone here would take the advice of the announcers considering how accurate they have been in the past about plays and situations. ;)

Peace

When Chick Hearn died, I listened to Laker games with music playing, because by listening to Chick for 38 years, it was impossible to listen to a common announcer call a game. Sometimes, we're better off with a seasoned eye of our own than with the observations of an appointed "expert." Guys like Morgan and McCarver are more for comic relief than for our edification.

Yeah, I sure miss him. But now he's in the refrigerator, the eggs are getting cold and the butter is getting hard! :) I remember listening to Chick when Chamberlain was the center and Abdul-Jabbar was known only as Lou Alcindor!

"The eggs are coolin' ..."

That was contributed by James Worthy's mom.

A little history on The Refrigerator: In a game that the Lakers were sure to win, as soon as he thought they iced it, Chick declared, “This ballgame’s in the Refrigerator!" Then he would add: "The door is closed, the light’s out, the eggs are coolin’, the butter’s gettin’ hard and the Jell-oooo’s jigglin’!” Chick started doing this in the mid-’50s when he broadcasted Bradley University games. It started with “This ballgame’s in the Refrigerator!” A while later, during the Lakers days came “The door is closed and the light’s out.” That sustained for many years. In the ’80s Showtime era, James Worthy’s mom had him add “The eggs are coolin’ and the butter’s gettin’ hard.” And some years later, a fan suggested that he add “The Jello’s jigglin.’”

Only twice, in all the years that Chick was informing us that a game had been decided, did an opponent actually catch up: An early-’90s regular season game in Denver and a 2002 overtime game in Portland. Hundreds and hundreds of calls, and he was wrong twice.

The announcing gods number a mere few now in all the sports. It's a shame we have to listen to another guy share the mike with all but Vin Scully. That's the best part of his games: there's no idiot analyst like Morgan spoiling Vinny's broadcast.

I am going to defend Tim a little here. I definitely think he got the play wrong and won't argue that. I also won't argue that a step or two of hustle may have let him see the play. With that said, here are my comments.

The picture that SDS shows in my opinion oversimplifies what happened in the play. Both Cano and Posada were moving simultaneously. Tim is focused on Posada because it is obvious the Angels want to get him out first. As Posada is tagged he and Mike Napoli are both between Tim and Cano. In the replay shot from behind 3B you can clearly see this. Cano is not on the bag when he is tagged but it is possible that Posada and Napoli blocked Tim out. When Posada and Napoli clear out, Cano is standing on the bag. I also think Tim wouldn't even guess that a runner would stop 2 feet from the bag and just stand there. Why Cano did this is still unexplainable to me.

Had Tim adjusted prior to the play, he may have had a better angle on Cano but gotten straight lined on Posada. In real time the tags happended very fast so I doubt he could put much thought into what angle would give him the best position for both runners. Might have done better, maybe not.

My beef in this play is what happened to Jerry Layne? I am assuming he trailed the play at least a few feet up the 3B line. He should have had a good look at Cano off the bag and could have offered help. From the plate looking up the 3rd baseline, this is an easy call with no one in the way.

I still don't know why he called Swisher out for leaving early. He never even looked at Swisher and should have gotten a far better angle to line up the tag and catch.

Lawrence

If Tim McClelland had asked Layne for help, I'm sure he would have gotten the call right. But he wasn't interested in getting it right. Lazy positioning; not interested in getting the call right. Bad combination.

What? I was just wondering if all of you actually meant "wost call ever" when you say it every few weeks after each blown call. I didn't realize that that was considered "picking apart simple English":rolleyes:

blah blah blah

I have taken umps off of varsity games for more more hustle than "Timmy Killin the Grass" showed here, which was still unacceptable.

Pink slip him NOW.

Nice Comment!
 

Today on ESPN's Around the Horn, Kevin Blackistone said, "The best thing to happen to sports is television - unless you're an official."

Now how about this for call #2 (the "two runners on third" play.)

U3 says he thought that R2 was touching third when tagged. R3 retreated to and past third. If that's what he thought he saw, at this point shouldn't R2 have been declarded out for passing, and then R3 out when tagged?

We can put a hair of the blame on the manager, for not asking Tim to get help. I'm pretty sure he would have if asked.

There are times, when you're blocked out, that you just make the call. This may have been the case. That's why I find the tag-up/out call far worse. He didn't see it, but still called him out for leaving early. There's no excuse on that one.

It's based on your history, not one set of comments.

How about this: That tied for the worst call ever.

Marriotti was full of crap saying that the umpires are too timid. Sometimes he's a real jackass.

The jury's still out on what McClelland and Scioscia said. I can't imagine Mike not asking him to get help; I can imagine McClelland refusing to ask for help.

Exactly what I was thinking....

Another angle.....Why is Cano protected from being tagged out if the Tim believes he is touching third base? It doesn't belong to him, it belongs to Posada. Does third protect both Cano AND Posada??

Basically, there should have been two outs regardless of what he "thought" he saw. Cano for being off the bag and being tagged or Cano out for passing Posada AND Posada out for being tagged off the base.

I'm with Kyle, I thought the blown call on the tag up was much more of a gross miss than the play at third. Now, that's not an excuse for the bad call, but the Cano/Posada cluster had a lot more moving parts then the 3rd base FUBAR.

I do not know if I agree with that. That was at least the pick off play was a closer play and a quick play. The play at third would have been made correctly if he just moved a little one way or the other. He assumed players were where they were instead of seeing them. I am not a fan of the pick off play call, but at least we have all had very close plays like that and the main way we know he missed that call was by the replay. You hardly needed a replay to judge what was wrong with the play at third base.

Peace

With regards to the appeal at third that was blown. Why isn't it the responsibility of PU to line up the runner and the fielder when the ball is hit to left field? Wouldn't this make more sense then having U3 have to retreat through possibilty the third baseman, R3 AND the 3rd base coach to get the proper angle??

No, if Cano had been on the base when tagged, like McClelland thought, he would have been as called, safe. He never passed Posada, and Posada doesn't have a claim to that base until he stands on it, which he never did; he was tagged off the base. So, McClelland, who was screened out on the play, thought Cano was on the base and he could see Posada was off the base, therefore he called Cano safe and Posada out. Only if both runners are tagged while both on the same base does the base belong to the preceding runner.

Steve, I understand what your saying but didn't Posada HAVE to retouch third before he could have attempted to proceed to home plate? This means that if Cano was on third as McClelland thought (which he wasn't) that Cano was technically closer to home plate then Posada?

No, Posada had no obligation to retouch 3rd base. He had established his baseline when the catcher tried to tag him. He tried to tag Cano first, so there was no play being made on Posada until after that.

It's a simple equation of supply and demand. If there are still a lot folks who are willing to start the journey at Harry's or Jim's, do it for little money, with only a sliver of hope of it paying off, why change things? MLB umpires don't make <i>that</i> much money, considering what they have to go through to get there, and all the time away from home they spend.

Bottom line: You're already drawing from a shallow talent pool, given all you need to go through and endure to get to the Show. Plus, once you do get there, there's no incentive to maintain your skills, as it's nearly impossible to get fired.

[QUOTE=tibear;632234]Exactly what I was thinking....

Another angle.....Why is Cano protected from being tagged out if the Tim believes he is touching third base? It doesn't belong to him, it belongs to Posada. Does third protect both Cano AND Posada??

Basically, there should have been two outs regardless of what he "thought" he saw. Cano for being off the bag and being tagged or Cano out for passing Posada AND Posada out for being tagged off the base.[/QUOTE]

When in the heck did they pass each other.. did you watch the play?

[QUOTE=Umpmazza;632269]The question was asked as a result of what Tim McCelland had said. McClelland thought Cano was on third base when Posada had overrun the base. Given that scenario, I was wondering if that had technically put Cano "closer" to home plate then Posada and would result in an out as passing a runner.

Probably part of the problem of this play is that major league umpires rarely see this type of play and they take a lot of assumptions about the players being smarter than that and being on the bag.

All I can say to Tim McClelland, Welcome to our league!

Could you please expand on your interpretation there? My take is that he's then established his baseline between the preceding base (2nd) and 3rd. He has obviously retreated beyond the base at that point- and yes, he did touch the base with his foot.

Thanks.

Even if he touched the base, when he stepped off again, he can reestablish his baseline and it doesn't matter where he goes UNTIL he is avoiding a tag when a tag attempt is made. At that point he is locked into running between the bases and can only go 3 feet in either direction out of his baseline in order to avoid a tag. The fact that he was on the left field side of 3rd is irrelevant to the enforcement of this rule, similar to the "skunk in the outfield" play.

Posada shouldn't get high before games.