Hairsplitter.

The Democrats made the Republicans look like Boy Scouts.

Most of the people who hate the military also hate the Boy Scouts.

And you see that is the infectious disease we continue to exhibit in this country. Your a conservative, liberal, democrate, republican, black, right wing, nazi, ............. and the list goes on.

Do we have anybody out there saying I am satisfied just being an American and doing things in the best intrest of America. That is being a true Patriot in my book. Like Kevin, I am sure he can care less what color, party affiliation, or religious background the veterans are, they are Americans that were willing to give their life for their country and it's the least he can do to repay them.

I might be the oddball here but I am dam well proud of it.

Some people may not believe in gravity either, but they will if they jump off a building to try to prove their claim. Because you don't believe it doesn't make it not true. The war was prolonged due to the lack of support given to our military leaders at the time, which was largely due to the unpopularity of the "police action" in Vietnam. If our military had not been hamstrung, we would have bombed the NVC back into the stone age and been done with it. Why do you think Vietnam vets are so bitter? We could have won that war, but folks like Hanoi Jane Fonda and others like her swayed public opinion in favor of pulling out and letting the communists overrun South Vietnam. To you, this is history. To me, and many like me, it was our daily lives.


I don't know any fiscal conservatives (how about Joe Lieberman or Zell Miller for example, whom I would vote for in a NY minute) who shared McVeigh's views. McVeigh and his ilk are not what is meant by conservative.

No, you obviously don't get it. There are evil extreme left-wing nut jobs, and evil extreme right-wing nut jobs. McVeigh was an evil ultra-right wing nut job. He has no resemblence to a true conservative.

The vast majority of us are all much closer to the center, and differ only in policy and other minor difference, but we are still loyal Americans. I have many friends who are democrats. We get along great, and they are very patriotic Americans. Liberal and Conservative are not bad words until taken to the extreme in both directions.


Peace, OUT.

Grey Mule, I'll ask again: Do you even know that there are 300,000 homeless veterans in this country? That number will be skyrocketing in the next two years. What do you do to contribute besides making these bizarre statements?

So you DON'T do anything to help our veterans, you just have these catchy bumper sticker platitudes to bark out. That's what I thought. That's the usual contribution, because first you have to recognize that there's a problem, and then you have to agree to take some responsibility for the problem. That's not happening.

The reason for the comment that you repeated in bold: There is a list of prominent Republican leaders compared to prominent Democratic leaders, and the Democrats who served in the military outnumbered the Republicans by something like three-to-one. Guys like war heroes John Kennedy and George McGovern. McCain, Dole and Bush 41 were about the only Republican guys on the list. But the list of Republican chicken hawks was impressive. Some of the biggest voices, like Deferment Dick Cheney and Newt Gingrich.

I love how you use a totally irrelevant issue like whether people believe in gravity to address this issue. I do not know anyone that does not believe in gravity. I guess that means you know someone that does? :rolleyes:


There are more people in the conservative world that are not just fiscal. If that is the case, I am a social conservative considering that most of my views would go along with the social conservative movement, I just do not feel those things are much more things the government should not be dictating. Pat Roberson is not just a fiscal conservative, he is much more of a social conservative and guys like him helped stoke the fire of people like McVeigh and their views of the government.

I did not say there were not left-wing extremists. But you make it sound like to be one you have to hate the military and no one conservative feels that way at all. There are a lot of people that hate the government for a lot of reasons. And no one side has a monopoly on that feeling. But it is not inherent in liberalism to hate the military and it never has been.

Most people that call a side extreme are when those sides do not agree with them.

Peace

I definitely think that trainers need to be over-the-top in their (un)adherence to umpiring "taboos." They should be picked for their representation of a model umpire for probees to look up to and mimic. Which typically in the first year or two is what many umpires do, they will just mimic the dress, looks and signals of older umpires.

Just my 2-cents on the comment posed in the UMPIRE FORUM.

Here's the list that ZM was referring to:

Democrats
Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.
David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.
Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.
Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.
Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.
Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII.
John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, Purple Hearts.
Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.
Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam.
Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53.
Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve,1968-74.
Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.
Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons.
Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Star.
Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit.
Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.
Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star, Combat V.
Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.
Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57
Chuck Robb: Vietnam
Howell Heflin: Silver Star
George McGovern: Silver Star &DFC during WWII.
Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but received #311 in the lottery.
Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy.
Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953
John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters.
Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg.

Republicans
Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage.
Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
Tom Delay: did not serve.
Bill Frist: did not serve.
Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
Rick Santorum: did not serve.
Trent Lott: did not serve.
John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.
Jeb Bush: did not serve.
Karl Rove: did not serve.
Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. (Chambliss is the man who attacked Max Cleland's patriotism)
Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
Richard Perle: did not serve.
Richard Shelby: did not serve.
Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.
JC Watts: did not serve.
Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem," although continued in NFL for 8 years.
Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
George Pataki: did not serve.
Phil Gramm: did not serve.
Christopher Cox: did not serve.
Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.
Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base.
Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in Korea.
Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard.
Ronald Reagan: U.S. Army (due to poor eyesight, served in a non-combat role).
Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor.
John McCain: US Navy 1958-81; Vietnam P.O.W.; Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.
George H.W. Bush: U.S. Navy in WWII; Distinguished Flying Cross
George W. Bush: failed to complete six-year National Guard assignment; re-assigned from Texas to Alabama National Guard so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S. Senate; failing to show up for required medical exam and duties, was stripped of his pilot status.

Pundits, Pontificators & Preachers
Sean Hannity: did not serve.
Rush Limbaugh: did not serve.
Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.
Michael Savage: did not serve.
George Will: did not serve.
Paul Gigot: did not serve.
Bill Bennett: did not serve.
Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
Bill Kristol: did not serve.
Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
Clarence Thomas: did not serve.
Ralph Reed: did not serve.
Michael Medved: did not serve.

Look at all those Democrats with Distinguished Flying Crosses and Purple Hearts! And then, look at McCain, Dole and Bush I---very impressive trio!

Let's hear some more deferment stories, Grandpa Dick.

What is the proper mechanic used by a liberal umpire on type A obstruction?

Is it different for a conservative umpire?

Thanks,


Tim.

So while we're here in the middle on something, let's all shake hands.

This only proves that Democrat heroes are the only ones sleazy enough to enter politics! (Just kidding I don't believe that for a second.)

I agree with Kevin - it's the extremes (left and right) that scare the hell out of me.

Would you refuse to assign a playoff game to an umpire who loathes the military?

Why would that, or should that come up within the framework of umpiring? I would like to think I was on the field with a fair, honorable, courageous man. Most of the rest of the details of his life and beliefs are irrelevant.

I have three regular umpiring partners that are ex-Marines. I have a regular partner that seems like a fringe character, who would never make it as a soldier, could possibly loathe the military, but has more guts than anybody out there.

I refuse to offer an opinion either way, and instead I make us talk about relevant things like baseball.

The only reason the subject was broached here was to dispel the myth that Democrats, or liberals, are too soft to serve in the military.

You mean , kind of like a do over.

Only if JW sings "Cum Bye Ah" in the background, while SDS checks the scale and I stand there saluting all in my pony tail and earings.

And the little ole lady from the "Griswalds Christmas story" echos

"AND THE ROCKETS RED GLARE"