Marty Foster's call at 3rd base today
 

Marty Foster called Derek Jeter out at 3rd base on a steal attempt. F5 had the ball waiting at the base for him. F5 did not apply a tag. Jeter cried like the little biatch he is, and blasted the umpire in the media. Gammons, the professional TOOL, and John Kruk, ex-rat, agreed with Jeter. Winfield told it like it is, that if the ball is waiting there, you're out whether tagged or not.

Question: How does everyone call this play in your games?

I make the "expected call when the ball beats the runner by a significant amount, and the tag is waiting at the bag. You can make all the pretty slides you want, but you are out. Now, if it's really close, and you make a pretty slide and avoid a swipe tag, that's different. You have made an athletic move, and beaten the fielder, and are therefore safe. What are your thoughts on this?

I think the other thread got posted just ahead of yours.

http://forum.officiating.com/basebal...-beat-him.html

Yeah, but only I asked a relevant question, so my thread stays.

The whiny little sh!t was out. Most players would have trotted back to the dugout.

What's so hard about calling as it should be rather than what is "expected"?

The only thing that changes on the field is which team complains.

Off the field the replay guys will praise you for getting it right instead of replaying the "wrong" call over and over and over and over and over and telling everyone how you blew it.


Seems like a tie for on the field and a win for off the field. How can you go wrong?

Only because it was mis-called.

Honestly, as a Red Sox fan, I cannot say a bad word about Derek Jeter. He is a class act.

On a different note, maybe Gammons and Kruk should replay the collision catch in the Tigers/Royals game. Check out the second base umpire in a full sprint to get a good view of the catch. The fact that he was even in the picture shows great hustle. Of course later on in the highlight package Kruk replays and slow-mo's a missed call at second base and proceeds to pick the umpire apart.

Despite your claim, what is expected is what it should be.

I make this call the same way as what happened tonight. If I don't, I get trouble on-field and off.

I wonder which assessment of Jeter's character is the more accurate.

Umpires don't get the benefit of super slowmo replay. When the ball and the glove are by the bag and the runner is not there yet it is very difficult for me not to call an out. I expect there were 40,000 or so present who saw an out.

If Jeter laid this tag down and the runner was called safe, he would cried even louder. He's a rat.

No, it was the right call.

I call that the same way that it was called in that game today. I've always been told by veterans that if the ball beats the runner by that much, and the runner slides straight into the base, he's out. Like someone else said, if the throw is a little off-line and there's a swipe tag and the runner slides to the inside or outside of the base, it's different.

Forget about Hirshbeck's assessment of Jeter. Read this quote:

"You have to make sure that you have a tag," Hirschbeck said. "It used to be if the ball beat you, you were out. It isn't that way anymore. It's not a reason to call someone out. You have to have a clean tag."

Times change, and the notion of the "expected call" has already passed its expiration date, at least at the higher levels.

At least in the press.

I would call what I see...
 

I may have called him out I may have called him safe. If I would have called him out, after seeing the replay, I would have eaten my crow and admitted I blew the call. Jeter was safe, Hirsh missed it. Happens.

I just don't get this "expected call" and "neighborhood play" crap. Don't get me wrong, if that is what my boss wants, that is what I'll do, but if a guy is safe/out he is safe/out. I can explain to a coach that the runner got his hand in before the tag was applied. I can't tell him that the throw beat him so he is out and then expect a coach not to question every single call I make after that point. I know a coach is going to questions calls, but an explanation like that invites a questions every time and eventually a shat storm. If I tell him the throw beat him now he is going to expect an out on every throw that beats the runner, whether force or not even if it is obvious the runner is safe.

<O:p</O:pWhy throw fuel on the fire of the perceived incompetences of our fraternity? Especially at the D1 and Pro levels with all the replays they have. This just adds more ammo to the morons that want everything called electronically and to take out the human element of the game.

You callin' the crew chief a liar?:)

Seriously, Hirschbeck didn't take the convenient way out. He didn't back his crew member. There's no way to pass that off as feeding the press a line that he didn't really mean.

"Jeter admitted that the Yankees have benefited from similar calls in the past, but he said he had never actually heard an umpire admitting to ruling a player out because the ball beat him.

"It bothers you if it's you, but if it works in your favor, you don't really mind it that much," Jeter said. "It happens. I just have never been told that before. It wasn't an argument, it was just that I didn't understand it."

So he wants it both ways. Rat.

Jeter knows how it's called. He admitted it. But when Marty talked to him as a pro, Jeter decided to take it like a Rat. Marty's mistake was to assume that Jeter could handle the truth.

It'll be a cold day before Jeter gets that call on defense again from any umpire.

Spoken like a true coach.

Mine, of course. You take John Hirschbeck's appeasement of the press over an honest assessment? Even Hirschbeck admitted that "it used to be called that way." Well, I'm from that old school, and sorry if I don't call a runner who is out by 15 feet safe because a fielder didn't want to get his hand injured by a sliding runner.

I was taught (by professional umpires) that if a fielder has a tag down waiting for the runner, and he does not drop the ball, that the runner is out when he slides in. The umpire bosses want it that way, the coaches want it that way. Except when it goes against their team, of course.:(

Why didn't Marty just say "Derek, to me it looked like he tagged you so go sit down!". That would have ended the whole thing. Wrong call? Maybe, but there is no IR on safe/out calls - yet!

Yep. Marty's only mistake was a bad choice of words.

Out all the way, period.

I agree Ozzy, "Ball was there and in my opinion, the tag was made."

Jeter may have fooled him at the last minute by pulling his hand back but I would have still called him out also. In fact, he probably would of had to throw out the Toronto skipper if he didn't call him out.

I think I would have called "safe" due to F5 Rolen not leaving his glove down there.

I do NOT buy into the announcers'/fans' viewpoint that "Jeter never argues, so he must have been right."

ace in CT

One thing many of you fail to grasp is that the coach can be on either side of the argument. It could be my runner. It could be my fielder. I have to consider what call should be made from both perspectives. And my choice is call it properly.

And properly, since Alexander Cartwright's day, has been to call the runner out.

OK, then let me rephrase it.

Not properly. Conveniently maybe, but not properly.

This isn't horseshoes or hand grenades. Close enough doesn't count.

The rule says you have to tag the runner before he touches the base. Require it and call it.

As pointed out by the crew chief at the game - the old days are gone - require the tag.

I wonder if he changed his position on throwing at batters on steroids heads as well.:rolleyes:

Rich, that might be true in your neck of the woods, but the coaches here have always wanted that call to go to the defense, and nobody argues the call. It's the way it's always been done. Why fix something that ain't broken? The coaches want that call on defense, so they aren't going to say anything when it doesn't go their way on offense.

Call in favor = "Good call, blue" and wipe brow, talk about how ump blew call with other coaches later; Call against = come out and argue, say call it "properly", "Get it right" or "Ask for help".

Really?

It's more like they want it their way on both offense and defense. And the post above saying how they act happy on the field and then mock the umpire for missing the actual call in the dugout is spot on.

I've watched coaches from opposing teams come up to a coach who had a run-in with an umpire laugh and chuckle about it and pretty much show that when it comes to umpires they're closer to being on the same team than their uniforms would indicate. A reminder that most coaches are, in the end, of the genus rattus maximus.

Did Foster say that? Every account I can find goes like this:

I think there is a possibility Jeter made up the conversation to deflect. Is there an account from Foster himself?

I'll bet you a bunch that the reason they want the call to go that way is because the umpires have always called it that way - not because they think it's right. They want the expected call only because they've been taught to expect it.

Now that replay is showing the "real" situation you're stuck. Now they know what the call should have been.

Dug your own grave.

So Girardi would prefer his $20m a year F6 to get hurt for no reason? The whole concept of the ball was there & tag close enough is injury reduction. Otherwise we have F5 blocking the bag & slapping the tag down on the hands or in the face. Same with the defense - no spikes to the hands/arms or face, collision reduction, etc.

Watching the video it's clear F5 put the glove down & gave Jeter the choice of how he wanted to be tagged. Granted Jeter moved his hand around the glove but notice F5 didn't slap the tag on when he did - that's big boy ball. Wait till the next time a Yankee runner is in that position - any bets the tag will go down, perhaps a bit firmly?

Yeah, I hope every time Jeter slides into a base that the fielder slaps him silly on his head!

In the TV/KZone/Questec age ...
 

It is easier for the powers that be to defend the right call that the expected one. There are those that would argue that Eric Gregg was right in calling a wide zone, because the looked like strikes from the dugout and everyone expected them to be so.

When working TV games work hard to get them right.

Yeah, I've actually had long-time, well respected varsity coaches come out and argue with me when I called a runner safe in such situations. They would, to a man, tell me in no uncertain terms that they were paying me to make that call, and what the hell would ever make me call that runner safe, etc. After a few of those, I decided early in my career to just call the runner out like I had been taught, and not insist on a tag when the ball beats the runner by a large margin.

It's not unlike the sweeping in-the-vacinity touch of 2B on a DP. No one ever argues that one because it's always expected to be called a DP.

The television has certainly changed the grand ole game...

[QUOTE]Steve I agree HOWEVER, the MLB umpires KNOW that just about every call in which a manager / player complains will be replayed a Zillion times in SUPER SLO MO.

They hardly give the "neighborhood" anymore because of Slo Mo replays.

IMO, Jeter has been around a long time and should KNOW what the deal is. If he was a rookie (meaning before he became Derek Jeter) he would have most likely kept his mouth shut.

Another poster IMO, said it best. Up until yesterday Jeter had the trust etc. of his fellow opponents so no need to give Jeter a hard tag etc on a ROUTINE play. How quickly Jeter forgets what happend to him in Toronto. Put him on the DL for an extended period of time.

What has Jeter now done by his comments?

It's time for "BIG BALL" meaning we will start to see some HARD TAGS on routine type plays.

Whatever happend to the tradition of baseball. I guess that went out the window with the lowering of the pitching mound and the advent of the DH among others.

Pete Booth

Steve:

I'm wondering how this quote does not contradict your statements in other threads where you accused others of looking for outs when there were none there so they could get home quicker.

Could you clarify how these two seemingly opposite viewpoints coincide?

Thanks!

Comparing apples and oranges again I see. Let me clarify this: I don't make the "expected call" like the Jeter call to go home quicker. I make it because the coaches and players don't want to get their runners and fielders injured by a really hard slide or tag. That is 180° different from calling a runner out who got pushed intentionally and forcefully off of his base by a coniving, cheating infielder trying to get a cheap double play. I never call outs to speed up the game. I pray for outs, but don't make artificial ones.:)

Won't ever happen. It works both ways.

I know, but a boy can dream, can't he?:)

I think Jeter put up such a stink because he's not supposed to steal in that situation...so if he's out, Girardi lays into him...if he's safe, there's nothing you can really say...it's a bit far-fetched I know, but he's a competitor...probably a bit fired up...

However, I wonder how many times he's been given the "neighborhood" out when turning 2?

Listen, we're going to disagree, again. :rolleyes:

To me, I have the runner out if the tag is there 90% of the time as well. But if I see the tag very noticably miss, he's safe.

I agree that coaches / players / MLB doesn't want to see hands getting beaten up by a fielder staying in there to make a tag. But he can't ole it either and expect an out. This is a case of out until proven safe IMO, but not automatic out.

I thought the fielder laid that glove right down in front of the base for quite a sufficiently long period of time. He didn' "ole" it, he put a tag down in front of a base and held it there until Jeter slid into the base. That's an out to me. But hell, then again, I don't have instant replay at my games to replay it over and over.

This is the most telling quote in this whole thread....

JJ

Amazing how chance works. Last night ball gets away from F2 but only slightly, R2 goes for 3B, ball beats him by a half yard, F5 puts the glove down, R2 slides in and I bang him out. Not a peep from anyone, including HC standing in the 3b box.

As I walk away I am thinking F5 may not have gotten the glove on him. Maybe I am thinking this because of this thread, don't know, but I do know there was not a peep from anyone.

I agree Tuss but, this was anything but "Noticably Missed" at normal speed.

I had the other side of this situation over the weekend. Batter hits a shot in the gap and tries for 3. The throw comes in while he's 15 feet from 3B, and F5 puts his glove down and holds it there. The BR's foot hits glove and wrist: no spiking, but he'd broken that wrist before and had to leave the game.

The ball came out, and my timing was impeccable, so the call was easy. :)

A trollin we will go, a trollin we will go, hi, ho, the merry oh, a trollin we will go!!

He's out all day and everyday in my games also. Been that way for about 15 years now and amazing I never get any grief about these calls. When I used to (my first 15 years) make these type of calls, it always ended up in an ejection or big argument.

Make the expected call and move on with the game. If Jeter wants to complain, then the next time he makes a similiar play, I call the runner safe.

If he complains, I would just remind him, "remember the other day in ..."

He would get over it pretty quick then I am for certain. Pro players want that call because it keeps them away from injury. The longer they have to stay in the play, the more chance of a freak injury, jamming the wrist, a cleat etc.,


Thanks
David

There's a difference between "thinking F5 MAY NOT have gotten a glove on him" and SEEING something other than a straight slide in and a missed tag.

I didn't see the OP, so I can't comment on what happened there. Maybe it was just missed. Maybe the umpire didn't expect the type of slide ("surprise is the umpire's worst enemy"), so he had poor timing. Maybe he mis-spoke (or was mis-heard).

For me, I'll look only as closely as I have to. If the ball is there, and the tag is down, it's up to the runner to convince me that the tag was missed by doing something other than sliding straight in and making me see the missed tag. Some runners have done that. Some have not.

Same crew last night Dodgers-Mets. Manny is out on a called strike three that's 4-5 inches outside by john Hirshbeck. Manny flips his equipment and gets tossed by Hirshbeck. Get the feeling that Marty Foster was thinking to himself "you could call that pitch a strike years ago but the game has changed". The shoe was on the other foot tonight.

GREAT point!

The pitch was a great pitcher's pitch, which several years back, hitters knew they had to swing at or walk away. Now, it's usually a ball because of the strike zone technology that's employed on almost every telecast, and the resultant scrutiny of the umpiring on gray area strikes. So now, when that pitch is called, hitters go off. Manny's zone knowledge and discipline are almost as good as there is, but if he takes a chance by looking at a pitch like that, he needs to shut the eff up and walk away.

Todd Helton fouls that off.

Irony is sometimes delicious. Too bad there wasn't someone who could throw Hirschbeck under the bus.

Don't get me wrong - Foster wasn't too bright with his comment to Jeter (although Jeter didn't have to turn it into the media circus it became) -- but Hirschbeck didn't have to say what he did, either. I'd never say something like this about an umpire on my crew and I'm just a pissant amateur umpire.

Maybe Hirshbeck screwed up. But maybe it was a FYC. Manny, as we all know, will be Manny.

Manny also vehemently argued an out call at 1st in the Pads game his first night back. He was clearly out by a half step, but he had to be peeled off the umpire by the 1st base coach. Just a case of Manny being a Tool.

The problem was in the response.

Speaking of which, this summer I have not been able to umpire as much because I been coaching some select baseball. I am all for these young kids getting the opportunity but when I go out there and argue a call they give me a look like I am crazy, then to top it off they give me a warning. Now I am sympathetic to umpires, I really am but when they give me a response that makes me question there ability, thats when I blow my top off.

Anyways sorry for derailing the thread, thought I would vent just a bit.

"go out and argue"

You go, Earl Weaver. :rolleyes:

Yeah, it's really heartwarming to have umpires go out and argue when they become coaches. Umpires should know better than that. Coaches that umpire are not umpires that also coach, I suppose.

Ok maybe I should of said discuss in a friendly manner.
So what you guys are trying to tell me is that I should not go and discuss a call that I feel he had a bad angle on or better yet I should not pick on the plate umpire that has no ball bags. I get it!

Come on guys, its not doing me a disservice when a call gets screwed, its the kids that get screwed and upset. Its upto the coaches to handle said situations.
We are all in this to get the call right.

How many times does an umpire change a judgment call?

If you came out and told me I had a bad angle or how I should umpire, you'd find yourself quickly ejected. I won't tell you how to coach, don't tell me how to umpire.

And it's none of a coach's business how the plate guy handles the spare baseballs, really. Sure, the guy is probably a complete Smitty, but making an *** of yourself sure isn't going to make things better. Just get you run and look like a jerk.

I coached plenty of travel ball, league ball, scout ball and I've assisted in JUCO ball, and I have never gone out and argued with an umpire, and if I ever did have a grievance, it was part of a sideline conversation later in the game. And that includes years ago before I became an umpire.

In fact, when an umpire, who currently coaches, comes out and "argues" or "discusses" a call, respect for his status as an umpire is diminished in the eyes of the umpire. I think Rich articulated that pretty well.

Touchy subject ehhh. Too sensitive I see, its about getting the call right in the end.

So next time I will just sit in the dugout and let the men in blue stick it to my team up the a$$. I never argued ball and strikes, but all I was asking for was an appeal.

I guess its one of those you have to be there moments. Or should I just play a mute and blind?

An appeal? Missed base, check swing or leaving early on a caught fly ball? Cause those are the only appeals umpires recognize.

That is the one, where I blew my roof. Anyways it was one of those you had to be there to understand my view or grief. Sorry I wont vent anymore.

No, I can imagine. Don't think I'm completely unsympathetic. I just don't think you come off well when you say things like you did above.

I'm not sure I can be a coach. I watch umpires not even look at the touch of first base when observing other crews. If I was the coach, I would appeal every time I saw the BU not turn his head and probably get run when I asked how he knew when he didn't even look.

Before you go out to "argue" or "discuss", consider who you are going out to "argue" or "discuss" with. A very simple "You missed that one" should suffice in most cases - and not yelled from across the field. It doesn't sound like that umpire was very experienced, which indicates maybe the league isn't a high level league that hires very experienced officials. Players, coaches and umpires are all learning in this type of league. Sounds like your players are learning that it's OK to "blow your top" at umpires, and it sounds like that umpire is learning that you're a coach with a short fuse.
When you umpire, don't coach, and vice versa. If that means biting your tongue when you coach, that's the price you pay as an umpire who coaches.

We're delighted you coach so the kids can play. Be delighted we umpire so they can play as well, no matter how inexperienced we are and whether or not we measure up to your expectations.

Whew....touchy/feely...not where I usually come from....

JJ

When has a coach "blowing his roof" ever gotten him anything but ejected?

Well, first of all, you're originally from Brooklyn. So you're naturally going to be more argumentative and harder to reach with a point of view. But now that you're from Texas, I'm sure you'll mellow out in due time.

Why do you believe a coach's status as an umpire decreases when he argues a call? Does he not have to right to discuss in a reasonable tone? Work with one's partner when umpiring, work with the umpires when coaching, and there shouldn't be an issue.

Sorry, when I coached I was in it to teach the kids the game of baseball, self discipline and repect for the game, their teammates, oppoents, coaches and officials.

I explained to them that playing ball was no different then life. You give your all and if that wasn't good enough or something didn't go your way, then you got to work harder next time.

I sat kids down for disrespecting other players, coaches and officials. If I had a question about a call that is exactly what it was. Can you explain to me the call please? Thanks. You can't want to win the game for the players more than them and you can't play it for them.

And that is EXACTLY what it is, A GAME.

So the next time you think that an umpire or any official shows up a a game you are coaching in, just to screw the kids , then try and lead by example, handle the situation without complaining. (America's favorite past time) You have an oppurtunity to show them how to be one step above the rest, so take it.

And that is how real coaches, "handle said situations" when leading kids.

The bolded part is false, I don't ever think an umpire shows up to screw a kid. I tell my players never to argue or disagree with the umpires, that it is my job.

An umpire can never cost us a game, I truly believe that and preach it, but I expect to be heard when I have a question on a play.

Let's put it this way then: You did say that the umpire's bad call screwed the kids. This is false. The call cost one of many opportunities you had to win the game. The umpire didn't have anything to do with the 5 errors made and/or the 4 HRs your team gave up that really led to your team losing. The kids wouldn't care so much if you didn't make a big deal out of it by losing your cool with the umpire. They don't see it as getting screwed by the umpire without you planting that idea in their heads.

Yep, yep.

If the umpire saw an attempted tag and the ball got there first and the fielder even missed the tag after seeing it in on replay, then I don't see a problem with the ump's call and can easily back up his claim he called the play as he saw it, but if the umpire, as in this case, flat out admits he had the runner out because the ball got there first and saw no reason in his mind to even make sure the fielder attempts to apply the tag says this umpire had zero chance in getting the call right because he has his own rules.

Again, spoken like a true fan of the game. But not spoken like an umpire. This is an umpire forum. Full of umpires. Plus a respected coach or two.

Yes, Marty Foster shouldn't have let the cat out of the bag that we call these plays outs because that's the way Jeter and all the managers in the world want them called. Only when it didn't favor Jeter did he have a problem with the call/explanation. He shouldn't have even opened his big yap in the first place, and none of this BS would have happened.

Derek Jeter has benefitted from the same call hundreds of times in his career, but this time, since he knew he screwed up by trying to steal 3rd with 2 outs and got caught, wanted to deflect the blame from himself and direct it onto Foster. Really classy guy. He and Ascrod are a pair to draw to, I tell ya.:rolleyes:

Sure Jeter screwed up and he deserved to be out, especially since he had no business taking that base unless he can make it, but the fielder has to finish the play and the umpire should've looked for the tag. From his argument, a tag never has to be made because the ball got there first. There's no defending this umpire. He screwed up big time.

The only thing he screwed up was telling Jeter what he told him. The call was right. It's not that the ball was there first. That's not the criteria. It's that the ball was so far ahead of the runner, and the tag was down in front of the base long before Jeter arrived. That's why he's out. The fielder has the right (and I feel, responsibility) to get his hand out of there to avoid any injury to himself or the runner.

I don't give a rat's a$$ what Hirschbeck said to the media. He had to say that because Foster told the secret. John was trying to get the genie back in the bottle by saying that they no longer call it like that. Bullsquat! They always have, and always will, give the fielder the benefit of the doubt when the ball beats the runner by an obviously large margin.

It's one thing not to get it, but when you don't get, that you don't get it.

Good Bye

I think the bolded terms mean the same thing.

And who really cares, anyway.

I think Jeter should get a few safe calls in the next week or two when he pulls the glove up early, is all. Maybe a few neighborhood plays don't go his way, too...

John,

Have you been watching a little too much Oprah? ;)

Interesting article
 

There is no automatic call on a headfirst slide, where the runner evades the tag. I'm sorry, but the automatic call is on a feet-first slide, in which the fielder is imperiled by the slide if he hangs in there. There is no danger from a guy's hands, only his spikes. This was a blown call and a blown explanation.

I have called outs on which the ball simply beat the runner, but it was always one-man or two-man, where you are not on top and the play and the coverage dictates that the call be made that way. But, come on, the guy was right on top of the play and still blew it---badly. And on a headfirst slide, which is employed just for that reason: to evade a tag at the last second. Bad call, bad explanation, bad situation ... 100 percent due to bad umpiring.

Steve you are on point. I'm sure that we can all attest that the players who are the worst discipline problems typically come from teams where coaches behave poorly as well. It's all about winning, losing, right, and wrong. It's not about instilling values of hard work, perseverance through adversity, class, and respect.

Coaches who take the responsibility of "standing up to the umpire" so their players don't have to are really just showing players that such behavior is acceptable. Kids follow your example eventually.

Can I get an AMEN?

Thanks for weighing in in a timely fashion. Takin' a stand, gotta love it! Like Jim Morrisson, you took a look around, see which way the wind blows.:rolleyes:

feet first = fielder could get hurt

head first = runner could get hurt

a lot of potential for getting hurt leaving the glove down. Jeter could have jammed a finger on F5's glove. I've seen it happen.

Last night, Angels at Mets, Mets F5 catches liner and tosses to F6 to double up R2. Slow mo shows R2 out by 12 inches, but in real time much closer. Hirschbeck calls R2 safe, who later scores.

Had Hirschbeck made the expected call instead of totally relying on what he saw, he would have been saved from a humiliating mistake.

Seeing isn't always believing, especially for us poor slobs working two- or three-man games. The best angle we develop isn't always the best angle under the unique circumstances of the bang-bang play. In my experience and my observation, making the expected call and giving the benefit of the doubt to the team that earned the call will save our bacons 90% of the time.

Perception is reality. Jeter was out.

Uh, no, the first time I tried to watch the play, it didn't work. I went on with my life, and then, today, I did see the play and it was a glaring example of one of those instances with conditions that do not add up to an automatic call. One of those conditions was the headfirst slide, which is both more likely to produce a deceptive movement at the end of the slide, and less likely to injure the fielder if he stays in there (the only legitimate reason for the automatic out call in the first place).

The guy blew the call and blathered about it (idiotic!) and ejected the manager. That was a bad minute of time in that guy's umpiring career.

I'm going to change the way I umpire. And when a guy is safe, even though the throw appeared to have beaten him, even though 90 percent of the time the throw beats him, he's out, but I see that he's safe like Jeter was, I'm going to call him out anyway. And when he jumps up and disputes the missed call, I'm going to say, "See all those people over there? Well, from over there, a play like yours is generally perceived as an out ... so I called you out."

But that's the problem...you shouldn't explain your call. Foster shouldn't have explained his call. He could have said, "Shut up, you get the same call on defense," and that would have been it.

I don't care if the runner slides head first, feet first, or as$ first, he's out if the tag has been waiting on the ground for him. In any other case, if he slides around the tag, he's safe. Not if the ball has been waiting for his arrival. That's a different situation than a daring, exciting hook slide on a close play.

I was working a 18-U wood bat summer Nationals game. I'm on the plate with a Kenny Lofton type guy as R1, and there's a sinking liner to right that drops. I fly to third, because I read that Lofton's coming (he read the liner early and took off). The right fielder throws a beam to third a little on the infield side. The third baseman catches the throw and lays the tag down on the inside corner of the bag 12 feet before R1 arrived. R1 does a headfirst slide, and just as he arrives, he shoots his right hand out toward the outside corner of the bag and the tag missed him from the angle that I busted my a$$ to get. SAFE!

I don't have the ability to make a one-man-game style call when I'm right on top of something. And when you're right on it and you have the angle, it matters a whole lot less what the perception is.

Marty Foster makes calls his way; I try to get it right based on anticipation, hustle, proper choice of angle, a steady set, a clear look, and a fair judgment. If I do it that way, I can do it the same way 100 percent of the time and be correct with my call a higher percentage of the time than the Marty Fosters of the world.

F5 should have dropped his knee in front of the base. Different type of play. F5 had plenty of time to block that bag. Once it was clear that the runner wasn't just going to give himself up, screw being nice...knock the runner out with the tag.

In Jeter's case, F5 was just being courteous to Jeter. Next time, maybe not so.

Playing the game properly is another subject.

If I am the third baseman and the guy slides headfirst, we have an out and an ailing baserunner.

The old knee-in-the-face trick.

Only if it's someone like Jeter should he drop the knee. Jeter was out because the umpire called him out. I agree with SDS that the umpire shouldn't have explained the call.

I think virtually everyone here agrees that his explaining (lamely excusing) his call was sheer idiocy.

Terrible call; terrible excuse; terrible job engaging the player.

So far, all we have is Jeter's version of what Marty said.

In some pro circles, another version goes like this:

"The ball beat you, the glove was done, you know how it's done Derek."

Then an embarrassed Jeter decided to interpret it to his manager and the press. Ratspeak.

In real time, from the positioning prescribed, it is an understandable call.

Hmmm,
 

Would any of you have a different perspective of this issue "if" the following was what was "really" said betwix Foster and Jeter:

Foster: "The ball beat you, the tag was down, I had you out."

AND:

Has anyone read anywhere that Hirchbeck talked with Foster before he met with the media?

I am not defending anyone -- I am just wondering what you all would think.

Thanks,