Catcher catches the pitch in front of home plate

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I looked for that and didn't see it. Where does it say that?

Page 117. "It is defensive interference (better known as "catcher's interference) if... (2) the catcher is on or forward of the tip of home plate (or "on fair territory") to get the pitch and prevents the batter's opportunity to swing at or bunt such pitch."

[NFump]

6.08(c).

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by NFump

6.08(c).

You forgot to add that 6.08(c) doesn't described what interference is, just explains one way a batter becomes a runner and gets first base without liability to be put out.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Well, since Chris Jaksa is the be-all-end-all guru of all things umpire, he has painted a very broad brush on Rule 2.00 INTERFERENCE (b). Does Evans or MLBUM weigh in on this as well? I did ask for someone to point these things out.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Well, this has been hotly debated (ad nauseum) in the past, and the consensus has always been that it is not interference.

Having been a member of McGriff's back in the day (wow, we're talking a dozen years ago!), umpire.org since its founding, and this particular site for a great while, I cannot remember any consensus on this particular form of (alleged) CI.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Well, since Chris Jaksa is the be-all-end-all guru of all things umpire, he has painted a very broad brush on Rule 2.00 INTERFERENCE (b). Does Evans or MLBUM weigh in on this as well? I did ask for someone to point these things out.

MLBUM does not address this particular point.

[umpjim]

OC: " Why wasn't that Int." You: "Your batter didn't swing." OC: OK, next time he'll take the catcher's head off."

[NFump]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

You forgot to add that 6.08(c) doesn't described what interference is, just explains one way a batter becomes a runner and gets first base without liability to be put out.

Because it's defined in Rule 2.00 but just for you....

INTERFERENCE

pertinent part is

(b) Defensive interference is an act by a fielder which hinders or PREVENTS A BATTER FROM HITTING A PITCH.

Doesn't seem broad to me, it's actually pretty specific. It's exactly what the catcher has done by stepping out in front of the plate. If'n he's still in there ready to hit I gots (b) and I be plyin 6.08(c).

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Well, since Chris Jaksa is the be-all-end-all guru of all things umpire, he has painted a very broad brush on Rule 2.00 INTERFERENCE (b). Does Evans or MLBUM weigh in on this as well? I did ask for someone to point these things out.

MLBUM says 7.07 invokes the additional penalty of a balk when the catcher interferes with the batter and there is an R3 stealing home. It does not say (or imply) that 2.00 (Interference (b)) is enforced differently just because there is an R3 headed home. That would make no sense at all.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

(2) the catcher is on or forward of the tip of home plate (or "on fair territory") to get the pitch and prevents the batter's opportunity to swing at or bunt such pitch

It seems that people are reading this in two different ways. Here's one:

(a) the catcher is on or forward of the tip of home plate (or "on fair territory") to get the pitch and [thereby] prevents the batter's opportunity to swing at or bunt such pitch

This reading assumes, perhaps correctly, that F2's being over the plate by itself prevents the batter's opportunity to swing or bunt and should be ruled CI.

Here's a different way some people are reading this:

(b) the catcher is (i) on or forward of the tip of home plate (or "on fair territory") to get the pitch AND (ii) prevents the batter's opportunity to swing at or bunt such pitch

This reading regards the two clauses as quite distinct and both necessary to call CI. F2's being over the plate does not in itself warrant calling CI. The batter must also do something: there must be at least part of a swing or bunt that F2 prevented from occurring normally.

Dash, you haven't made a case for the first interpretation by simply restating the rule. And, as I said, my J/R (2005) has 2 case plays, in both of which the batter tries to swing or bunt. That's not decisive, but it's not nothing. And it made me think twice here.

I lean toward reading (a), but would like to have some authority back it up. The reason I like (a) is that the second clause does NOT say: prevents the batter from swinging or bunting.

Rather the crucial expression is: "prevents the batter's opportunity to swing." To prevent a swing, there must be a swing; but to prevent an opportunity to swing, there need be no swing. F2's being over the plate precludes the possibility of the batter swinging normally, and that would constitute preventing the opportunity to swing.

So, I'll be looking for something authoritative to decide the question, and in the meantime go with my best guess. (Not that it's a burning issue: I think I've called this once in the last 5 years.)

[ozzy6900]

My take has always been that once F1 has delivered a legal pitch, it is the batters right to offer at the pitch. If F2 gets in the way and the batter is unable to offer at the pitch, I call obstruction (interference). I have had discussions with managers and/or head coaches but never an argument. I simply tell them that their catcher interfered with the batters right to offer at the pitch.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

It seems that people are reading this in two different ways. Here's one:

(a) the catcher is on or forward of the tip of home plate (or "on fair territory") to get the pitch and [thereby] prevents the batter's opportunity to swing at or bunt such pitch

This reading assumes, perhaps correctly, that F2's being over the plate by itself prevents the batter's opportunity to swing or bunt and should be ruled CI.

Here's a different way some people are reading this:

(b) the catcher is (i) on or forward of the tip of home plate (or "on fair territory") to get the pitch AND (ii) prevents the batter's opportunity to swing at or bunt such pitch

This reading regards the two clauses as quite distinct and both necessary to call CI. F2's being over the plate does not in itself warrant calling CI. The batter must also do something: there must be at least part of a swing or bunt that F2 prevented from occurring normally.

Dash, you haven't made a case for the first interpretation by simply restating the rule. And, as I said, my J/R (2005) has 2 case plays, in both of which the batter tries to swing or bunt. That's not decisive, but it's not nothing. And it made me think twice here.

I lean toward reading (a), but would like to have some authority back it up. The reason I like (a) is that the second clause does NOT say: prevents the batter from swinging or bunting.

Rather the crucial expression is: "prevents the batter's opportunity to swing." To prevent a swing, there must be a swing; but to prevent an opportunity to swing, there need be no swing. F2's being over the plate precludes the possibility of the batter swinging normally, and that would constitute preventing the opportunity to swing.

So, I'll be looking for something authoritative to decide the question, and in the meantime go with my best guess. (Not that it's a burning issue: I think I've called this once in the last 5 years.)

IMO, J/R is a very carefully worded manual. Evidence that J/R supports your (a) is contained in its example #5 in what does NOT constitute CI: "The batter completely gives up his opportunity to swing or bunt at a pitch." If J/R supported your (b), I believe it would simply state: "The batter does not attempt to swing or bunt at the pitch."

[NFump]

Originally Posted by mbyron

It seems that people are reading this in two different ways. Here's one:

(a) the catcher is on or forward of the tip of home plate (or "on fair territory") to get the pitch and [thereby] prevents the batter's opportunity to swing at or bunt such pitch

This reading assumes, perhaps correctly, that F2's being over the plate by itself prevents the batter's opportunity to swing or bunt and should be ruled CI.

Here's a different way some people are reading this:

(b) the catcher is (i) on or forward of the tip of home plate (or "on fair territory") to get the pitch AND (ii) prevents the batter's opportunity to swing at or bunt such pitch

This reading regards the two clauses as quite distinct and both necessary to call CI. F2's being over the plate does not in itself warrant calling CI. The batter must also do something: there must be at least part of a swing or bunt that F2 prevented from occurring normally.

Dash, you haven't made a case for the first interpretation by simply restating the rule. And, as I said, my J/R (2005) has 2 case plays, in both of which the batter tries to swing or bunt. That's not decisive, but it's not nothing. And it made me think twice here.

I lean toward reading (a), but would like to have some authority back it up. The reason I like (a) is that the second clause does NOT say: prevents the batter from swinging or bunting.

Rather the crucial expression is: "prevents the batter's opportunity to swing." To prevent a swing, there must be a swing; but to prevent an opportunity to swing, there need be no swing. F2's being over the plate precludes the possibility of the batter swinging normally, and that would constitute preventing the opportunity to swing.

So, I'll be looking for something authoritative to decide the question, and in the meantime go with my best guess. (Not that it's a burning issue: I think I've called this once in the last 5 years.)

You've got it right in the second part, but "to prevent a swing, there must be a swing"? Then the swing hasn't been "prevented". When you prevent something you keep it from happening.

As it says in the definition of interference: hinders (which covers interference with the batter but he is still able to hit the pitch) or PREVENTS the batter from hitting the pitch. If he is unable to hit the pitch, not because he didn't swing but because the pitch is in the catcher's glove and never reached him then he has been prevented from hitting the pitch. Not much sense in swinging at something that isn't there.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

IMO, J/R is a very carefully worded manual. Evidence that J/R supports your (a) is contained in its example #5 in what does NOT constitute CI: "The batter completely gives up his opportunity to swing or bunt at a pitch." If J/R supported your (b), I believe it would simply state: "The batter does not attempt to swing or bunt at the pitch."

You mentioned this example before, but I didn't see the logic of it. This is an example of a case that is NOT CI, which can only be so helpful in determining whether a different case IS CI.

So I guess that this is saying that the only way NOT to call CI on this is if the batter "completely gives up his opportunity to swing or bunt." How would he do that? By stepping out during the pitch? By taking all the way? By just standing there?

Perhaps you can see how adherents of my reading (b) could glom onto this as supporting their reading. They might think that if the batter doesn't swing, he's given up his opportunity to swing, and so according to J/R this would not constitute CI. I think that this muddies the issue further.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You mentioned this example before, but I didn't see the logic of it. This is an example of a case that is NOT CI, which can only be so helpful in determining whether a different case IS CI.

So I guess that this is saying that the only way NOT to call CI on this is if the batter "completely gives up his opportunity to swing or bunt." How would he do that? By stepping out during the pitch?

Yes.

By taking all the way? By just standing there?

No.

Perhaps you can see how adherents of my reading (b) could glom onto this as supporting their reading. They might think that if the batter doesn't swing, he's given up his opportunity to swing, and so according to J/R this would not constitute CI. I think that this muddies the issue further.

J/R says it is not CI if the batter completely gives up his opportunity to swing or bunt at the pitch. The batter does that by stepping out.

2.00 says it is CI if the catcher prevents the batter from hitting the pitch. If the catcher has caught the pitch in front of the plate, he has surely prevented the batter from hitting it, whether or not he attempts to do so.

[jicecone]

Seems somewhat obvious here that your best bet is to call CI because your never going to explain this in 5 words or less, let alone 5 sentences. Call the CI and save all the brohaha for a more defined black and white argument.

Of course, if your looking to dump the HC in the first place, well????????????