Help Needed (Again)

[Rufus]

Had this one happen this weekend and I'm not sure how it's supposed to be handled. This happened during a tournament that was a mish-mash of Fed and local rules so I'm not so much interested in how it should have been called (i.e., criticizing the on-field decision reached), more about how it's supposed to be called in the future in case this one comes up again.

Here's the situation. A player not appearing on the lineup card checks in and plays an inning in LF. The defense gets three outs and goes into the dugout to take their at bats. They've already batted once around their order (using a continuous lineup of 11 players). The opposing coach brings the "rogue" player to the umpire's attention. What, if anything, can/should be done about it? Would appreciate both Fed and USSSA/OBR treatment.

In looking through the USSSA rulebook I found something that sort of applies but, since the player was not listed as a substitute on the lineup card, am not sure how they can become legal.

8.03.J If no announcement of a substitution is made, the substitute shall be considered as having entered the game when:
8.03.J.1 If a pitcher, he takes his place on the pitcher’s plate;
8.03.J.2 If a batter, he takes his place in the batter’s box;
8.03.J.3 If a fielder, he reaches the position usually occupied by the fielder he has replaced, and play commences;
8.03.J.4 If a runner, he takes the place of the runner he has replaced.

Rule 8.03.J Comment: Any play made by, or on, any above mentioned unannounced substitution shall be legal.

[DG]

Impossible to answer since if they are playing 11 man continuous lineup that is no common rule set I am familiar with. That is generally a local rule. Do local rules also require all players to be on the lineup? If so he is illegal.

Your 8.03.j.3 reference is usually what happens in 9 man lineup or 10 man where that is used (Babe Ruth EH rule).

[waltjp]

Using FED as a baseline - nothing illegal.

[GA Umpire]

It is my understanding that subs don't have to be listed but they are as a courtesy. If this is true, then nothing illegal as Walt said. The player takes the place in the lineup of the one who was in LF for the previous inning. That is how I would handle it.

[cbfoulds]

Absent a "local rule" [or one in the sanctioning body rule book] there is no requirement that substitutes be listed on the lineup card; or more accurately, no penalty for failure to do so. If the substitute player is "legal" in the sense of allowed to play for that team under any circumstances [using the sanctioning body's rules re: age, residence, being a formal "member" of the team] - he can play and there is nothing to be "done".

If the player is NOT a legal substitute, for reasons other than not being listed on the lineup, the proceedures and penalties for illegal substitute become available.

[SanDiegoSteve]

The only leagues I've had where this would be an issue is certain adult leagues where the managers have to exchange player I.D. cards before the start of the game, insuring that neither team can bring in a ringer. Mexican-American league is one such example. The only people without league I.D. cards allowed to play must be pre-approved by the opposing manager without exception.

[ManInBlue]

By definition a continuous line up has no subs. By rule, he can be added to the end of the line up if he shows up late. If that turn at bat has past, I'm stuck-now you'd be changing the lineup.

I'd say he's a sub and find out for whom he's playing. Although that's another $%$#storm b/c a CL has no subs - you either bat 9 w/ subs, use an EH w/ subs OR bat CL - can't have 11 w/o CL - so where's #12 come from? The more I think about it, he may not be legal in THIS situation.

[DG]

Unless there is a rule otherwise I would stick him in at 12 in the BO and move on.

[umpjim]

Got me thinking so I checked the rules. FED requires the batting order and subs "should" be listed. No penalty if not. (By the book. In your local area the myth may still persist or your state may want something else.)
The MLB rule on their website require only the "Batting Order" presented to the umpire at the plate conference. The batting order is defined in my LGB as the defensive lineup plus DH but it is not defined in the MLB website rule. It would be interesting to hear what MLB anf MiLB require in their various divisions and how they keep track of whose legal on the roster and at the game site.

[DG]

Originally Posted by umpjim

Got me thinking so I checked the rules. FED requires the batting order and subs "should" be listed. No penalty if not. (By the book. In your local area the myth may still persist or your state may want something else.)
The MLB rule on their website require only the "Batting Order" presented to the umpire at the plate conference. The batting order is defined in my LGB as the defensive lineup plus DH but it is not defined in the MLB website rule. It would be interesting to hear what MLB anf MiLB require in their various divisions and how they keep track of whose legal on the roster and at the game site.

Continuouos BO with 11 players makes references to FED and OBR rules useless. This is a different rule set.

[ozzy6900]

In Professional Baseball, only rostered players may be eligible to be entered in the lineup. Other than that, there is nothing in amateur baseball that says that only players listed on the lineup card may play.

That said, I agree with others where as if there is anything greater than 9 batting, the rules are out the window! Furthermore, Local rules are a joke.

[jicecone]

They are batting 11 players so everyone gets a chance to hit and play. Obviously not real baseball rules and the kid got to play..

Move on and tell the coach next year when the kids move up to MLB they will have to abide by Real Baseball rules.

Let them play!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rufus

In looking through the USSSA rulebook I found something that sort of applies but, since the player was not listed as a substitute on the lineup card, am not sure how they can become legal.[/I]

iirc, USSSA says that if the CBO is being used, that a late arriving player gets placed at the bottom of the order (#12, in this instance) and then bats when it's next his turn.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by umpjim

Got me thinking so I checked the rules. FED requires the batting order and subs "should" be listed. No penalty if not. (By the book. In your local area the myth may still persist or your state may want something else.)
The MLB rule on their website require only the "Batting Order" presented to the umpire at the plate conference. The batting order is defined in my LGB as the defensive lineup plus DH but it is not defined in the MLB website rule. It would be interesting to hear what MLB anf MiLB require in their various divisions and how they keep track of whose legal on the roster and at the game site.

Why do folks have such a hard time separating "batting order" and "team roster"? They are two separate, distinct things.

If the "batting order" listed all players on the roster should you let all of them bat?

MLBUM 3.1 LINEUP CARDS

Each manager should write the name of each eligible player on the face of his club's batting order card in addition to furnishing the starting lineup. However, a manager's failure to list an eligible player does not prevent that player from entering the game, nor is such failure grounds for protest, as the listing of eligible players is simply a courtesy.

In pro ball the league office has the official roster and each team has a copy of everyone else's active player list.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Move on and tell the coach next year when the kids move up to MLB they will have to abide by Real Baseball rules.

They must be some excepionally talented kids!