Why not another? 9U play
 

This happened Sunday.

We had a runner on 1st, 0 out

Grounder to 1B, tags first and throws to second and nails our runner in the back. He whimpers. I am coaching first and yell for him to get to the base...2B tags him 5 feet from the base and BU calls him safe and calls time.

I jog out to check on the kid and the BU is hearing all sorts of exasperated hollering from the Defensive team's dugout. After about 90 seconds, I convince the kid that he is ok and when I turn around, BU says I think he should be out. I said, "Nope, too late. You called him safe." I turned around and jogged away and heard him say but, but....I never looked back.

The PU told me a couple of innings later that the BU had thought that the runner was awarded the base because he was hit.:(:p:D

Joe in Missuri

Joe,

So, if I'm reading you right, you just wanted to let everyone know that you choose to behave as a rat when you are coaching freaking 9U games, where you very likely have poorly-trained, inexperienced youth umpires. And that you find some sort of humor in the situation.

Interesting.

JM

Train your umpires better.

Hey, if you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'. :)

He deserved what he got from the Defensive team. He was at least 18 years old-an adult. If this moron does not the rules or the first thing about umpiring, then do not come out on the field. If he got OBS and INT confused, that would be one thing but, this was ridiculous-he just made up a rule.

If he had CALLED him out that would have been one thing...he just told me what he thought...so I politely told him what I thought and jogged away. I did not argue. I did not yell. I smiled.

Joe in Missouri

Now, to be accurate...I did not cheat!:D

When I played 1B in HS baseball, I used an illegal Softball sized mitt(think Dodge Pinto sized) THAT was cheating! But, I needed every bit of help I could get.

I think you need to come to grips with the fact this is 9U ball and it is what it is.

What in the world makes you think that I do not have a grip on the fact that the kids are 9U?

I am having a blast and our kids are smiling constantly...I cannot say that for many of the teams that we have faced.

If you are an experienced umpire, you should have performed an honorable service to this young umpire as a mentor. You could have taken the high road; instead you crawled into a rat hole.

Well, okay! You (who are an umpire and know the rules) did a great job of mentoring the "18 year old moron". You also did a great job of showing why I have said for years that umpire/coaches are just rats dressed up.

What comes around - goes around, chief! You'll get payback when you are in uniform!

Might have something to do with this statement:

9U baseball - obviously dealing with inexperienced umpires and you're here bragging about how you put one over on him. Your apparent glee over this situation speaks volumes. 9-friggin-U baseball! And earlier in the week you're complaining about what an umpire claims he can and can't see.

Joe , I think your more interested in winning the games than your kids. 9 under and the umpiring is bad? You need the grip baby.

Did you know all the rules when you started? Doubt it.

As smart as you seem to be, you have'nt figured out yet why we keeping shooting bullets at you. Bullets you supply us with. Don't worry, we all grow up sooner or later. One word of advise though.

RESPECT.

Have a nice day!!!

I am not sure why you go right into the name calling. He went out there and told the ump he thought his own runner should be out. Now everyone accuses him of cheating?

If a coach would have come out to an umpire complaining that his runner should be awarded a base because he was hit with a ball while trying to advance, many people on this forum would be making fun of that coach left and right. But because the umpire made a bad call, now its the coach's fault for not mentoring him? I mean how many coach's come out in the first place and tell an umpire that he thinks his runner should be out? It has never happened to me.

Read the OP again! The coach didnt say his runner was out, but that he was safe!

chicago11,

I'm not sure what thread you're reading...

Joe, by his own account, did NOT tell the ump his runner was out. Rather, when the ump realized he probably blew the call (thanks to the helpful input of the team disadvantaged) Joe told him he couldn't change it. Which is, of course, wrong.

So, he's teaching 9 year old kids that it's OK to cheat as long as you gain some personal advantage and that pre-emptive intimidation is the preferred tactic when you are in a position to use it.

What thread are you reading?

JM

Is it me, or since I moved from the north country has the cold weather really affected you guys that much?

Joe has now complained twice about umpires for 9U games. Well "No Freaking Kidding" , they suck. If Joe was only a coach, we could accept this ignorance but, he says he is also an umpire. Does he also complain to the parents of his team that their kids don't play like MLB players?

So what part of this don't you understand Chicago?

You cannot expect coaches not to cheat. It's their nature.

You cannot expect an umpire to be anything but impartial. It's their nature.

When you are both a coach and an umpire, you wear two different hats, and have two distinct personalities, which you must separate for each job.

No coach is going to go out and bail out the umpire for blowing a call in their favor. You people really expect a coach, even one who umpires, to ask an umpire to overrule themselves against their own team? Cha, right.

Wow
 

:(I guess I will jump in here as well, since I came over to the dark side as they say, coaching to now umpiring (last two years) all youth baseball. I have been humbled as a person, a man, a father and a mentor(so I thought) when I would jump on all and any umpire I thought was not giving me the calls or getting the calls right. I know now of what I didn’t know and it has changed my perspective on people on the real meaning of competition and what sports have become. I love working the games and see young kids learn and grow. I continually see coaches take advantage of young umpires. That is why in our organization we pair a young umpire with a Sr. umpire and that is for two reasons. 1. To protect the young umpire from being used and abused by coaches and fans. 2. To mentor, teach guide encourage. I don’t know the umpire personally that posted the OP but what I can do is reflect on another approach I would have offered such as explaining to the young ump his options and allowing him to get it right or learn from it in fairness to the game and in honor of the game. I grow weary of coaches influencing young athletes of why they lost a game due to an umpire’s error when in fact they should be teaching how to overcome adversity overcome challenges overcome situations when they don’t go your way or what you perceive to be your way. How to improve on the game and your skills, take aways as to what you learned or gained in the game today. That is what they should walk away with. Such is life right? Or, maybe it is all about winning at any cost....lessons learned from our recent economic strife based on honor, integrity, character and doing the right thing. What will that young player that got hit in the back learn from this experience as he witnessed his coach communicating to this young umpire? I am sure the other players in ear shout heard him as well. What do they come away with? What does this young umpire come away with? Are we building bridges or building walls?

Horn blowing time. First of all shame on you Mr Washburn.

During the summer I coach an American Legion team (18-19 yr olds). Last summer while playing our biggest rival (who usually kicks our arses all over the field) I was coaching 3rd base when our batter sent a line drive over my head and landed 8 feet foul down the left field line. As I put up the stop sign for the runner at first I noticed that the PU was signaling the ball fair. When he saw me stopping my runner you could see him gulp. He came into the infield and verbally asked the BU if he saw the ball. Before the Bu could respond I quietly said, "its foul Steve". He then threw up his hands and changed his call.

After the inning the General manager met me in the dug out and asked me, just what in the h@!! are you doing. (he was half kidding) I told him you know what you got when you hired me. He asked me if I would have done the same thing in the tournament and I told him, "lets cross that bridge then". I think he knew then what his answer was.

Integrity, and the teaching of it is a big part of Baseball to me and alot of you (came to that conclusion by reading your posts). Especially at the lower levels coaches and umpires and parents should teach their players this aspect.

A rat in denial. Classic.

JM while we are "all over the coach" what has NOT been mentioned is this

We have 2 umpires out there the BU and the PU

Why in the world is the PU talking to this coach and throwing his YOUNG partner the BU under the bus UNLESS the PU is young himslef which would explain a lot.

Here is what should have happened assuming the PU had experience.

During the 90 second delay (when the coach was attending to the kid that got hit in the back), the PU should have signalled to the BU, got his attention and said "unless you thought R1 interfered on the play the runner is out as he was tagged."

Therefore, IMO we need to be consistent. if we are going to call the coach a rat what are we going to call the PU (again assuming the PU had experience) who threw his partner under the bus by telling the coach that the BU ruled the runner safe becasue he was hit with the ball and thereby embarassing the young umpire.

At best the PU should have kept quiet and then AFTER the game had a post game with the young umpire so that the young umpire could improove and also learn not to be intimated by a coach.

I agree 9 and under - enough said but there is more to go around here then just the coach. The PU could have and IMO should have stepped up to the plate and protected his partner but he did not.

if this PU was as young and inexperienced as the BU then forget my above comments.

Pete Booth

Pete,

Valid points. I concur.

At least the PU didn't come on here and brag about throwing his partner under the bus.

JM

Consider this OP:

An 18 yr old kid gives me a McFish instead of a Big Mac and the French Fries are still frozen and the Coke I ordered is an Ice Tea. This is after he shorted me 3 dollars in change and did not wash his hands before handling the food.

That is pretty close to the product I am getting as a consumer of these umpires except they are making more than twice the hourly wage that the Mcdonald's kid is making. I expect the guy at McDonald's to have some training and have some idea what he is doing. Will he have the cash register mastered in the first week, probably not. Should he know that they do not sell Whoppers? Yes, he should.

Here are the things that I bring to my team as an experienced umpire.

1) Our players have been instructed to not argue with umpires. Not make faces or anything like that.

2) Our parents are instructed to not chirp or yell at the umpires.

3) Our coaches do not argue with the umpires-I am the only to talk to them and only in extreme situations. Umpires will here nothing about balls and strikes from us (ok once I did say after a ball was called a strike-Hey. That hit home plate-I am not joking)

Mentoring the umpires? I tried after a game to encourage/mentor/etc and got nothing out of it. The advice I got here was to not try that.

Someone else said something about winning. In our league we are in he middle. In the tournament this weekend, we got clobbered three straight games. When Cell Phone McGhee called my guy safe then sorta thought about changing his mind, we were losing 15-1 and no one heard me comment other than the umpire-nobody even knew he was considering a reversal except me.

I am having a boatload of fun coaching this team-so are our kids.

Pete,

Valid points about the PU(He looked to be in the 18-21 range, as well)

You forgot one thing. I did not do anything wrong.

Joe

That's not close to the OP at all.

Try this one: You get two big macs instead of one, and $3 extra in change.

After the big macs are put on the tray, but before the tray is handed to you, you say, "it's too late. You filled my order", take the tray, the extra $3 and walk away smiling.

Integrity, indeed.

Shame on me? How about shame on the kid who is old enough to vote that took a pretty good paying job and did NOTHING to prepare himself for that job? How about SHAME on him for making up a rule? Shame on me? Nope, not on this one.

For your ridiculous example, pat yourself on the back. It was a terrible coaching decision, though. You cared more about what the umpire was going through than your team. It was completely unfair to your kids. Keep your yap shut in that situation. I am not saying go out and argue that your caught a ball that he didn't. Terrible calls have a way of evening out. There is no way I am going to ask the umpire to rule against my team.

So you took some of your frustration out on the young kid. That makes it better?
How about getting the call right and teaching sportsmanship to your players. In my humble opinion you missed a great teaching opportunity on this one....

(was probably the same kid at McDonalds too.. Might have spit on your sammich :eek:)

I think a lot of people forget that 'winning' is defined by the rules. If you don't play by the rules, you cannot win. You can only appear to win.

That's called cheating.

So integrity means nothing to you?
(oh by the way, yours was a 9 yr old game?) :rolleyes:

I don't get this at all. The kids know it's foul, the parents know it's foul, the GM knows it's foul. The right thing is to be sportsmanlike and do what he did. Furthermore, it's possible he was the one who blocked the umpire from seeing the ball. Personally, I'm good for about one gross miss a season or two. I don't know how that evens out unless I happen to have you again two seasons from now when I screw up again.

I know this is a sweeping generalization, but in general I *hate* working for coaches who also umpire. Many of them do not really have a grasp of the rules, mechanics, etc. but because they umpire a few games makes them more of an expert than me. I don't really mind too much, but I tend to have a much shorter rope with those guys, especially if they announce that they umpire before the game starts (like I care).

So, if I have a kid running that is obviously out but called safe, I should get him called out?

What about the three or four kids in that game that were obviously safe but called out? (two of them were tagged with empty gloves)

I did not cheat. I did not argue. Cell Phone Mcghee could have changed his call if he liked and I would have not said a word. What I was not going to do is help his change his call.

I was the coach. My job is not to get the call right. That was Cell Phone McGhee's job.

So you disagree with the NFHS in that umpires, coaches etc. must work together to assure that the student/child athletes receive the best learning environment available?

Let me make my view clearer (on coaching). My team will win or lose a game based on their performance as well as the performance of their opponents. (They are also taught to appreciate the accomplishments of their opponents.)

Are there close calls that I believe an umpire misses and I do nothing? Yes, judgment calls are part of the game (in the situation I described, neither umpire saw the hit ball or whether it was fair or foul), but getting the play correct is the most important thing (this is to me what is fair for both teams), so if umpires get together and change a call that goes against my team - so be it. Have I discussed plays with umpires? Yes, many times, and have left a few of those discussions letting the umpires know that I believe they were wrong. Any team I coach knows going into the season my views on these subjects and I am usually very proud of them before, during and after the season is over.

And by the way, I dont ever tell umpires, that I dont know, that I also umpire, in my opinion its irrelevant to the current situation.

Baseball is a great tool to teach young men some of lifes lessons and I will continue coaching and umpiring as long as I enjoy either or both. (makes an old man feel young again) OK off my soap box!!!!!!!

In all of this
 

I did not hear the word protest.

I heard "hollering from the dugout" which may or may not be a protest.

Of course, offense would have lost this protest were it lodged.

FWIW.

Absolutely.

From the 2009 NFHS Baseball Rule Book, Points of Emphasis:

As we all know, some things are more important than winning (sorry, Vince Lombardi).

What??
 

"Cell Phone Mcghee could have changed his call if he liked and I would have not said a word."

"I was the coach. My job is not to get the call right. That was Cell Phone McGhee's job"

Except when he was thinking of changing the call and trying to get it right - you told him "Nope you can't.."


So knowing the U made an incorrect call and was thinking of changing it. You tried (and succeeded) to influence the umpire to make an incorrect call? I call that cheating.

When I worked at McDonald's in the 1980's, I had free uniforms. I was paid for my training hours, too. I don't ever remember getting paid to attend an umpire clinic.

Just another example of someone who thinks that getting $25 for a 2 hour game equates to "$12.50 an hour". Never mind all the rest that goes into it.

The more you talk in this thread, the more I'm tempted to reach in my ball bag for a nice wedge of cheese to throw in your direction.

This guy got a free shirt from the Athletic Association and he was wearing tan dockers and white Nikes. He got $37.50 for the game and free food. He also rode his bike there so he must live pretty close by. Now, I think he had to buy his own cell phone and from the looks of it, I think it was an I-phone. Right there is a major expense in Umpire equipment.

Okay, why is everyone citing NFHS rules for this non-NFHS situation? I don't believe he was discussing a HS situation. So, this would apply how?

I think I can speak from experience here as I umpire and also coach my 10 year old (call me a rat if you must). There is no way I'm treating another umpire that way. We all have to start somewhere whether it be a 9u game or freshman game.

I have also tried to get Cell Phone McGee to umpire these games but alot of times he won't because he heard stories about how others were treated by coaches and fans.

In my NFHS rule book, there are 2 pages in there of Code of Ethics for Coaches and a Code of Ethics for Officials. I think you should reread them both...

http://nostempore.net/images/ratface.jpg:D

I actually have not umpired HS ball in a few years and do not have those books. I can probably get a hold of one, though. Please refer me to the page that tells a coach to get his runners called out. I have the code of ethics for our league, and that is not in here.

I did not holler at this guy. I did not show him up. I did not argue with him. Nobody heard what I said to him other than him.

Lets put this in perspective Joe.

San Diego Steve (Because you like him), goes to evaluate your next officiating assignment and without talking to you comes back on the forum and rips your perforamance apart. Talks about how you should be returning some of the pay you received and also has a few choice names for you because you are just not as good as him or will never live up to his expectations.

Even though we could all say that hey, if you read all of Steve's 7 posts about your performance you would eventually beneifit from the advise of another Sr. official.

Would this really be ethical of Steve?

Sometimes Joe, it is not the package that is important, its the presentation of it. You may be the worlds greatest umpire but when we first met at my car and you said "Hello A%%hole "my name is Joe I am your partner, my impression never got any better about you than that.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

I encourage evaluation of my games. I seek out people to evaluate me. However, my umpiring skills have nothing to do with this situation.

Whether I have umpired 15 years or none, as a coach, I am not going to help an umpire call my guy out.

I am not an umpire when I am a coach and I am not a coach when I am an umpire.

Since when is it your place to determine if a person hird by the league is overpaid? Maybe he's there at $37.50 cause that's the only person they could get. 9U? Regular season? I wouldn't touch that with a 10-foot-pole.

(I have been known to do some LL games at this level for free, but that's different. Besides, we scare those coaches and if they act up we make them go away.)

"The coach shall respect and support contest officials. The coach shall not indulge in conduct which would incite players or spectators against the officials. Public criticism of officials or players is unethical."

"Officials shall work with each other and their state associations in a constructive and cooperative manner."

How do you explain to the parents after the game when they ask you about that play? Do you just answer "not my fault that Cell Phone McGee doesn't know the rules." I just can't fathom that and I think I would lose alot of respect for any coach that feels that way.

I will never understand umpires who put on the coaching uniform and it's almost like they've never umpired or even heard the word integrity. You didn't just keep quiet, you essentially told the umpire "you called him safe, you can't change it now." One pound of cheese for the rat.

In addition to the "ignore" button, the owners should install a "rat" switch.

The phrase "coach that also umpires" seems appropriate here.

Again, this was not an NFHS game.

As for your question: I was asked about the play by some players: Why did they call him safe? The 2B tagged him. I said: "You are right, he was tagged long before he got to the base. I have no idea why the umpire called him safe." It was completely true...at that time, I had no idea why Cell Phone McGhee had made such a terrible call.

As for the parents, we have a good group...an ex-pro athlete, an ex-Minor League and NCAA baseball umpire, and some others...I heard comments like this:

"I like how you do not argue with the umpires."
"I think it is good how you teach the kids to respect the umpires."
"I am very appreciative how you are constantly encouraging our players throughout the game."

I did not say he was overpaid. I was posting that in response to the guy that said he got free uniforms at McDonald's. I posted that to show that a guy who shaves and votes and takes a job should know a little bit about what he is doing when he is getting my money.

I remember the first time I ever officiated anything...I was the line judge for volleyball at my High School when I was in the 9th grade. I made sure to go over everything to make sure I knew what I was doing because they were PAYING ME. I was only 15 years old at the time.

Whatever wrongs you think I committed, it is nothing compared to someone taking money for a job and not trying to do it well. What about the tournament people who collected a lot of money and got umpires who had never seen a baseball game.

Oh, I see. Lying and cheating are acceptable until the players are age 15-18 and participate in a NFHS sanctioned contest? :rolleyes:

To justify your actions because this was not a FED game speaks volumes of your integrity and ethics. You're willing to lie, cheat and steal while coaching 9 year olds. I've never liked the term before but "rat" is a perfect description for you and your actions.

What does the adult on the cell phone collecting umpire fees get?

I did not tell him what he could and could not do. I made a flippant comment to a guy who had my money to do a job and was had made no effort to do that job properly.

I did not lie. I did not cheat.

I did not lie, cheat or steal.

Now, the guy that took money for a job that he knew he could not do...some might say he was cheating and/or lying and/or stealing.

You lied: "You can't call him out. You already called him safe."

Of COURSE he could have changed his own call. Liar.

The code of conduct
 

This is the code for our league:

To insure both players and umpires are
provided a positive environment, free from
physical and emotional harassment, the league, has
the following managerial prohibitions:
1. The touching of an umpire.
2. Leaving the designated area in a hostile
manner (i.e. dugout, coach’s box) without
permission, except if an injury to a
player has occurred.
3. A coach or manager shall not approach an
umpire without first being given
permission or granted a time out.
4. The use of foul language.
5. The throwing/abuse of equipment.
6. Continuous verbal harassment and/or
unsportsmanlike conduct.
7. Fan misbehavior.
8. Calling a play before the umpire.

Violation of items 5&6 will receive one (1)
warning and the expulsion of the manager or
coach of the team if a second violation
occurs during the game. It should be noted
that the managers and coaches are responsible
for their fans behavior.
Violation of all other items will result in
immediate ejection.
-------------------------------
Our 3rd base coach violated #8 and I was on him like the stink on Rosie O'Donnell. I have had a few fans that might have been in violation of #7 if allowed to continue...I squleched it at the start of the season. I had a player throw his bat after striking out in the second inning and he was done for the game.

"Nope, too late. You called him safe."
 

[QUOTE=jwwashburn;608170]
I said, "Nope, too late. You called him safe." I turned around and jogged away and heard him say but, but....I never looked back.

Joe, you can justify your actions to make yourself feel less guilt, and that is what I perceive from all your comments. Like I stated before, I do not know you personally and will not judge you personally, But my perception to this is a simple statement you made to the young ump. "Nope, too late. You called him safe." Then you ignored him and jogged off. To me this is just a flat lie. So, again perception. My perception of this OP is that you are trying to justify your actions in this situation by gaining some support from the members here. Otherwise, why would you post this situation? But, as you can tell you keep getting in deeper and keep trying to justify your actions. Some questions one should be asking oneself is...What did your young players learn from this? What was their perception on how the coach handled it? Can you tell them honestly without a doubt that you handled it correctly? How do you instill trust and honestly and team work and unity amoung the players and coaches? I carry some guilt from some of my past actions like yelling at a ref and getting tossed out of a gym in a youth basketball game 7 years ago. I explained to my wife my actions to gain support and to justify what I did and she quickly and directly told me I was wrong and you embarrased yourself and your family. My youngest boy has never forgotten that and I never will either. I had to ask him to forgive me and to explain to him how wrong I was. Humble pie, you bet. Maybe you should explain this situation to your spouse or close friend and see what feedback you get. Can't hurt anymore than what you have already received from these posts.

If you are going to call me a liar, then do not intentionally misquote me.

Joe,

That was inexcuseable of Rich to "misquote" you like that, when you actually said:

Oh, wait, Rich didn't mis-characterize what you said in any way!

Liar.

Can you see China yet? Well, keep digging, you gotta be gettin' close.

JM

Joe, you can justify your actions to make yourself feel less guilt, and that is what I perceive from all your comments. Like I stated before, I do not know you personally and will not judge you personally, But my perception to this is a simple statement you made to the young ump. "Nope, too late. You called him safe." Then you ignored him and jogged off. To me this is just a flat lie.

A flat lie would have been something completely different and you know it. I made a flippant comment and I actually did not expect him to pay attention.

So, again perception. My perception of this OP is that you are trying to justify your actions in this situation by gaining some support from the members here. Otherwise, why would you post this situation?

Why? For fun. I have fun with the ridiculous piety from some here. I have had fun with the embarrassing comments people have made.

But, as you can tell you keep getting in deeper and keep trying to justify your actions. Some questions one should be asking oneself is...What did your young players learn from this? What was their perception on how the coach handled it? Can you tell them honestly without a doubt that you handled it correctly?

Again. My young players did not learn anything from it because they did not know about the comment that the bU made or the one that I made. They learned that sometimes umpires make inexplicably awful calls and the game goes on and we do not get an explanation. they have learned throughout the season that their coaches do not argue with umpires. They have learned they they will not, either. As for how I handled it...I think the result would have been the same if I had not made the flippant comment but just left, instead. Maybe I should have not made the sarcastic remark...but it was a small deal, not a big one.

How do you instill trust and honestly and team work and unity amoung the players and coaches? I carry some guilt from some of my past actions like yelling at a ref and getting tossed out of a gym in a youth basketball game 7 years ago. I explained to my wife my actions to gain support and to justify what I did and she quickly and directly told me I was wrong and you embarrased yourself and your family. My youngest boy has never forgotten that and I never will either. I had to ask him to forgive me and to explain to him how wrong I was. Humble pie, you bet. Maybe you should explain this situation to your spouse or close friend and see what feedback you get. Can't hurt anymore than what you have already received from these posts.

Ok, I am glad you learned from your explosion in a gym. I did not do anything like what you did. This was not that. this was a smart-alleck flippant remark that only the BU and I heard. I have discussed this with several friends(umpires and not) the most stern rebuke I got was: Well, it probably would have been better if you had just said nothing.

I think that is right. It probably would have been perfect if I had said nothing...but some folks here would not have been satisfied with that! Some people think I should help the umpire call my guy out. That is just insane.

Perhaps the fielder thought he was playing dodgeball and pegged the runner. Whoops, can't play dodgeball anymore. Safe!

Intentions Hit Home
 

Joe - Thanks for the feedback and maybe your intentions have hit home with some of us. I know it has with me. I guess this is fun in some way. It is very interesting to see how we all respond to many rules and situations on this forum. But, what I have learned from your initial OP is that there are many that are very sensitive and sincere about brining honor and integrity to the game and that is a good thing. Y'all have a good weekend.

Almost forget, I have learned also that at times I should just not say anything as was suggested by some.

What I find so humerous about this is that in the last thread, Joe was complaining about the umpire that "lied" to him.

Now let's see, who's telling the young umpire the lie now ...

LOL

Thanks
David

Let's see, he lied and, as he stated, he just smiled about it as he walked away.

So, to put it in just 4 words:

Lyin, sleazy, cheesy, Rat.

Intentionally misquote? Shoot, what you said and what I misquoted pretty much say the same thing.

RichMSN: "You called him safe, you can't change it now."

You: "Nope, too late. You called him safe."

Oh, yes, I can see how RichMSN completely, and obvously intentionally, misquted you and changed the entire meaning of what you said.

Shame on him.

And, shame on us for expecting you to act in any other way. You're a coach. It's just your nature.

I guess if you're proud of what you did so be it. Apparently our opinion of how you handled it doesn't matter to you so next time keep it off this board.

JM,

Could you stop shooting your mouth off and try to interpret what Jwwashburn said. He told the umpire that he couldn't change a call, and if I were a coach trying to gain an advantage, I would say the same thing. Do you really think you are above trying to influence an umpire? Can you honestly tell me you have never taken shots at other umpires during your coaching (or umpiring) days?

My guess is that it is hard to take any of you seriously when you flame for no reason. This whole thread was doomed right from the time JM posted.

Without a coach you have no job. Without someone to suggest that you can't change a call, there is no reason for umpires to be on the field. Be thankful for people like Jwwashburn who are the reason you were hired in the first place.

I will thank you to not put any words in my mouth. I merely am pointing out that you are applying standards which are inappropriate to the contest in question. I never said lying and cheating were acceptable, but coaches do use these tactics frequently. I don't coach baseball, but if I were coaching baseball, I would try to gain every advantage I could for my team.

So.............
When performing umpire duties we must display integrity.
When performing coaching duties integrity is not necessary.

I get it now..........

Thank you for getting it.:rolleyes:

By that logic, I should be glad there are gangbangers and dope dealers. Without them, I wouldn't have a job.

No. Without lying, sleazy coaches, I'd have no job. But there's no fear of that, is there?

Ump153,

I disagree. Heck, you don't really NEED any coaches to have a baseball game.

However, you do need at least one umpire to have an actual baseball game.

Even if all coaches were saints, you would still need umpires.

JM

Only because the players are just as ratty.

Well, I suppose that's one way of looking at it.

But, again, even if all the players were saints, you would STILL need umpires.

JM

I'm in the camp of "if coaches and players didn't lie or cheat, you wouldn't need umpires."

I had inferred that.

While I certainly agree that it is an important aspect of umpiring, I believe that considering it the sole reason represents a profound misconception of the fundamental role of the umpire(s) in a game of baseball.

JM

Maybe a review of rule 1.01 would help:

"Baseball is a game between two teams of nine players each, under direction of a manager, played on an enclosed field in accordance with these rules, under jurisdiction of one or more umpires.

Having coaches is part of the baseball tradition, and the rules. Coaches are there to help their team win, and umpires are there to make sure nobody gets an unfair advantage.

The first of the 200 plus errors in the rulebook.

Please enlighten me as to the error in that statement. Manager...umpire(s)...sounds accurate.

Baseball is no longer a game just between two teams of nine players each. At least half the time at the pro level it is a game between two teams of ten players each.

Even at the amateur level much of the time, if not a majority of the time, it is a game between two teams of ten players each.

(You apparently have never attended an Evans Clinc, Classic or school.)

Why don't you have a big glass of STFU?

If that same kid prepared your Big Mac without special sauce, would you say shame on him ? Or would you instead blame the manager who hired him, and put him on the clock without prior proper training ??? I'm sure when you first started umpiring, you knew all there was to know. Obviously, the kid has some learning to do, but you don't seem interested in helping him learn, just pointing out his short-comings. Did NOTHING to prepare himself for the job ? NOTHING ? I guess you know this kid pretty well to have knowledge of that. There are lots of people who insist that the hands are part of the bat. Are they making up a rule ? No, they are parroting what they've been told numerous times, and have come to believe it. Maybe that's what happened in this case. Maybe someone told the kid that that was the rule, and he's held on to it in his head. I hope for his sake he doesn't have anymore of your games.
He deserves better treatment.

I was going by the bolded statements, that managers and umpires were involved in the game. If you would care to give me a scholarship to an umpire school, I would choose Harry's.

NOTHING? yes, I think that is a little rough. He DID have an I-Phone and expensive looking sunglasses with red trim. And, he mostly tucked in some of the shirt that they gave him. So, yes! He did spend some time preparing.

I knew that there would be some comments on here disagreeing with my flippant remark. Like I said before, it would have been best for me not to have said it.

I was not prepared for the number of lunkheads who were going to try to convince me that a coach should help the umpire make calls and understand rules. And, that a coach should get his runner called out because the umpire does not know the rules.

It is the coach's job to help an umpire learn his job? That is such a load of Horse Hockey.

The coach has ZERO responsibility to help the umpire make calls or understand rules.

It is remarkable how many people believe that I should have been helping Cell Phone McGhee do his job. Those are some of the most moronic posts I have ever read.

What part of 9U don't you understand? It's a learning experience for everyone involved - including managers. What I find most reprehensible about the above comment is that it comes from another umpire who thinks it's fine and dandy to take advantage of someone just starting out.

When it's you against the world, bet on the world.

The Reason for Having Umpires
 

Paraphrasing Carl Childress:

"The reason for having umpires is to prevent either team from taking unfair advantage of the rules."

Do they submit evaluations of you that are included in your overall rating? :D

This has always been the case. No coach is there to be your friend unless by pretending so, he can gain a tactical advantage.

If you view all coaches as the enemy, you will not be wrong more than 0.000001% of the time, and you gotta like those odds. A tactical truce is about the best you can expect.

Every single coach who has posted in this forum over the years merely solidifies this basic precept.

And don't forget that umpires are never to blame for anything.

BINGO!!!!! This is the absolute bottom line for me in the original situation. Had this been a game played at an older age group, the young umpire hopefully would have had the experience/knowledge to know the rule involved.


I also am of the opinion that umpires, coaches and parents/spectators are absolutely not necessary for the game to be played by young uns. My fondest memories of playing this grand old game was on the sand lot with my 10 to 20 buddies (who ever showed up) and playing all day without adult supervision. (Learned most of my adult words there though) Disagreements on the field were settled by the old free for all......;)

My point is that he was not just inexperienced. He was a lazy, sleazy, cheese eating rat.

It is so ridiculous how much crap a coach gets for one little sarcastic remark.

But, over the course of the weekend, Cell Phone McGhee took HUNDREDS of dollars for a job that he did not try to do well.

And again, he was not a kid, he was an adult.

But, yeah yeah....I should have interrupted his phone calls and mentored him. I should have helped him know the rules...

What responsibility does an ADULT have when taking a job? Any?

The umpire is just a nice young man trying to learn the game...give me a break. Some of the umpires here are so full of themselves it is nauseating.

I used to think a "rat" meant a badly behaving, obnoxious coach. I now see the real definition in many of the heads here. A rat is someone that does see his #1 job to make lousy umpires look good. If he does not teach the umpires how to umpire, he is a rat. If an umpire calls his runner safe and he does not get that runner out, he is a rat. What a load of crap.

Joe

That post must've taken a lot of energy. Better go eat some cheese, rat.

Thank you, Einstein.

Enjoy being on the side of the lazy turd-Cell Phone McGhee who couldn't care less whether he did a good job.

I prefer to use my brain.

I am a rat in your definition-a coach who does not try to make lousy umpires look good.

In my fifteen+ years of umpiring I do not recall anyone telling me it was my job to make lousy coaches look good-whether they were new or not.

I only have 1 thing about this thread. And, it relates to this thread.
http://forum.officiating.com/basebal...e-handled.html

All I can say is this. Don't complain about the umpire's you get in a game if you are going to contribute to their ignorance. That is all I will say about this.

You are being a coach and I understand that. I don't think I would have done that since I do know the rules. But, you chose to so be it. Just remember, you are contributing to your own headaches when you continue to have incompetent umpires. Just don't be 2 faced about the issue.