GA, after a weekend with these guys(and they were ALL rejects from the bike assembly at Toys R US) I made ONE little flippant remark.

Do I regret the remark...only in the mildest sense of the word. Like I said before, I probably should not have said it.

What amazes me is the depth that some people here go to denigrate all coaches and excuse all umpires. It is insane.

Thanks for your comment.

All of this over...9U baseball.

Yup, me too - "Look, boys and girls, Magic! Watch me make the nasty coach disappear!"

I am starting to wonder if you have any clue, myself. Maybe you're just a lousy coach who's a bit too fixated on the fact the guy had a cell phone on the field with him. And you've referred to him as "Cell Phone McGhee" so many times there's no doubt you're fixated on that.

I've seen college umpires work summer rec programs and take phones with them and make and take calls between innings. Frankly, life's too short to care about crap like that.

It's a 9U game. It's supply and demand. If you could get better for $37.50, you'd have them already. The choices are simple: Accept what you have, pay more, or entice better people to do the job. I'd do it for $50 as long as there were 2 games and it was less than 10 miles from my house (but I would have no tolerance of rats).

I am not excusing or blaming anyone for anything. Umpires should know the rules or make a valiant effort to learn them. They should not listen to coaches ever about the rules. They talk to their partners for that if they need help.

As for coaches, they are not to blame for umpires' ignorance of the rules. Umpires take that blame. But, coaches should not be upset if they are contributing to the ignorance. That is all I am saying.

Also, is it necessary to try to belittle the umpires? They are not able to defend themselves. Especially, if they know nothing about being talked about. And, why do so many of the posters feel it necessary to refer to younger umpires as (insert any name you have called young umpires) just b/c they didn't like their attitude. Others are guilty of this as well.

My last game last season was a bit of free community service -- a 9-10 year old game (it felt like the game was 9-10 years old) where I ended up ejecting the losing coach in the bottom of the last inning after a whacker at first base.

Perfect ending to a year.

And these days ARE a memory, at least out where I live. I can't remember the last time I saw an unsupervised game on a ballfield. Seeing an empty ballfield on a clear spring/summer day used to be blasphemy. Now it's the status quo.

Exactly. It's enough to make your head spin.

http://westendwhingers.files.wordpre...-head-spin.jpg

Those insults really make you seem immature. Can you claim to have any integrity when you say stuff like that?

You ask who pays attention to stuff like cell phones. Do you not see the problem with making $37 and wearing a cell phone, then doing a lousy job. By the way, $37 is very good pay. I can't imagine anyone demanding $50 per game for 2 games at most 10 miles away from home.

Talking on his cell phone was his major activity. Umpiring was an afterthought. By the way, who said anything about between innings? I saw him texting during the innings. But, I know...I should have mentored him. I should have taught him the rules. I should have begged him to call my runner out!

If you do not realize how stupid an umpire looks on a cell phone on the field, you have spoken volumes. I don't need to know anything more about your professionalism.

Joe

Isn't interesting that the words F***ing and Christ together as a phrase is less offensive to some people than my little quip to Cell Phone McGhee. We are living in the Twilight Zone.

Huh? I've made over $100 for a game essentially in my backyard. $37 may be good pay to you, but for some of us, we lose more by taking an hour or two off from work.

I get more grief working kids games than anything else and it's a lack of knowledge and decorum on the part of the coaches and parents 99% of the time. If I price myself out of that market, I have more time for golf and my daughter. And a coach can come on here and complain about the guy they get in my place.

Integrity? IJAFIBB. If you want to see integrity, come watch me work games, not waste time posting here. ;)

BTW, I have only ever taken a phone on the field/court when my wife was pregnant. I wouldn't do it otherwise, but that's because it's not right for me. I don't lean up against a fence or talk to my partners between every inning or....well, you get the picture. But I'm not about to stand and pass judgment over a guy I didn't see myself.

I just find it ironic that a coach can do what the OP did and yet he's somehow on higher moral ground than the umpire.

"You can't....you already called him safe!" Glee ensues.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

I guess it depends on the level of games with which you are familiar.

Joe, just curious. When you made the original post, what were you looking for? Information? Feedback on how to handle a situation? Reading your OP, I'm thinking of what I usually say to a coach at a basketball game who's keeping up a running chatter on the sideline: "Is there a question in there?"

Wow, I've been reading for awhile...what was the OP about?

I posted it for fun. I thought it would be a hoot to watch the "false piety" lobby make fools of themselves.

They really outdid themselves, though.

You must not be interested in a contract.:D

"I didn't really mean it."

The refuge of the creator of a losing argument.

Didn't really mean what?

I said what I said to Cell Phone McGhee.

I am not sure what your comment means.

There is a difference between helping someone learn the rules and intentionally lying to them in an attempt to gain an advantage for one's team. You knew that he could have called the runner out after the play but you told him that he was not allowed to do so. You lied to him about a rule. It would be no different if your team was on defense and the batter was hit by the pitch in the hand and you went out and told the umpre that the batter doesn't get first base because the hands are part of the bat. You know that isn't the truth but you go out there and lie to him to gain an advantage.

$65 [US, not CDN] per and I live less than 2 miles from the fields.

If I were willing to drive 20 miles and do a solo, $75 per; and they are glad to pay it.

You must live somewhere there are a surplus of umpires.

Suspicion confirmed.

An "Internet troll" or "Forum Troll" or "Message Board Troll" is a person who posts outrageous message to bait people to answer. Forum Troll delights in sowing discord on the forums. A troll is someone who inspires flaming rhetoric, someone who is purposely provoking and pulling people into flaming discussion. Flaming discussions usually end with name calling and a flame war.

OR

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

I don't work 1-man games. Minimum Fee - $65/game (7 Inn). There is a league that pays $90 for 9 innings (Youth games).

I can't imagine working for less.

I simply reject the "I was wearing my coach had at the time" argument as it pertains to this situation. I subscribe to the "once an official ALWAYS an official" camp. As an official, lying to ANYONE (even cell phone mcgee) to gain a competitive advantage in amateur athletics is simply beneath me.

Too bad it's not beneath you, Joe.

Some have said I was lying. I do not think saying: "Nope, too late. You called him safe" was a lie.

I already said that the best case scenario, I would have been able to keep my mouth shut(of course, for many people here, even THAT would not have been good enough...for them I should have been told the umpire to call my guy out)

I was expressing my opinion that it was too late and I did not want him change his mind. I certainly did not state that the rules preclude him from changing his mind. He did not know I am an umpire. My comment was not given or taken as an authoritative commentary on the OBR. The only reason he was considering changing his mind was too placate the other team who were hollering at him. He was just a wimp trying to please the other team. If I had gotten any notion that this guy gave a flying crap about doing a good job, I would have never said anything. If he had been a kid instead of an adult, I would not have said anything.

Rats
 

Since the other thread was closed before I could respond to your post, I will put it here.
You want to know why coaches and players are referred to as "rats" in general. You have proven why in this thread. You knew what you told the umpire was wrong. You told it to him anyway hoping he would(and did) believe you and not make the correct call. This is being a "rat" as it is put. Find as many ways as possible to bend or break the rules and hope the officials don't catch it. That is why the term "Rat" is given to coaches. It has nothing to do with the confrontational ones. It has everything to do with the nature of many coaches.

And, if the player does fess up to not catching a fly ball, then he is showing morals to not cheat to win. He knew he missed it and did not lie about it. I can't believe you called an honest player a moron. You have clearly showed you are a wolf in sheep's clothing on the field(coach dressed up like an umpire). And, you wonder why so many attack you when you post things. You are always negative toward umpires who do not agree with you hence your other thread. And, you attempt to convince umpires they are wrong when they are right. And, you wonder why coaches/players are referred to as "Rats". Go figure.

Coach:

Then you must think it is the truth.

That's different. You aren't unethical, you're just ignorant of the rules. Hopefully you'll brush up before putting your umpire hat back on.

Any player that says, "No, I did not catch it" is a moron and also benched.

I think I did nail it on the head for some of you in the piety lobby...A player or coach or manager should help the umpire who screwed up a call in their favor or they are rats. But, they only should help the umpire fix his call if the umpire erred in their favor.

The insanity of your position cannot be overstated.

Why should a coach or manager help the umpire but not the reverse?

I didn't say they should. I said those who do what you did are referred to as "rats". It is amazing how you defend cheating. Yet, you try to be an umpire. Your integrity as an umpire would be shot if the other coaches knew what you do. And, well, your integrity as a coach is already shot b/c coaches have no integrity.

I said those who do not do what you did show integrity and morals. Not "cheat to win at all costs" idea.

Every post you make shows why coaches are perceived as "rats". I can't believe you don't see it but you clearly don't. Keep being a rat with each post.

I am just curious here, GA UMPIRE...if that is your real name...

Have you ever called a pitch a strike and then realized it was a ball? Did you change it for the integrity of the game? Have you ever called a pitch a strike that you KNEW was a ball? Have you ever given a "ball off the plate" as your strike zone? Have you ever called a guy out on a ball out of the zone because he was a jerk on strike two? Have you ever called a guy safe or out and then realized you kicked the call. Did you then tell everyone that you blew it and changed the call? Do you criticize umpires for doing any of these things? How about the umpires that laugh about getting outs and strikes that don't exist? What about the umpires who call guys out because "the ball was there"...even if the tag was not.

You want an outfielder to say "NO! I did not catch it! call him SAFE!" You take the cake.

A person's integrity and integrity of the game are 2 totally different things.

Integrity of the game is calling the game within the rules. If the umpire blows the call, he has not ruined the integrity of the game. He just missed it. And, a judgment call does not change just b/c the umpire may think he blew the judgment. If there is a rule misapplied(as in your play), then the judgment call can be changed such as first baseman's foot comes off the bag. All of that still upholds the integrity of the game b/c it is part of the game and rules.

A player/coach informing the umpire of what the correct call is shows integrity of the person. Doesn't mean the call will change. It just means the person has morals and integrity. And, that goes a long way. Just like when an umpire knows a coach/player is a "rat". He does not get the benefit of the doubt at that point b/c he will do/say anything to get an advantage.

I'm not saying you have to do that by no means. All I am saying is don't question why others attack you when you pull "rat" tactics and come on here to brag about them. Do what you want. If you get busted, well, then you deserve the treatment you get such as close plays not going your way. Or, your fellow coaches giving you he!! as an umpire b/c they already know the levels you will stoop to. That is all I am saying.

And this sends what message to the player? :rolleyes:

Right. If the player doesn't cheat with the coach, then he sits down b/c he is showing integrity. :eek:

OMG, a 9 y/o has more integrity than an adult and shows it.

Mr. Umpire told me that I am acting like a coach on an umpire board. I will attempt an objective perspective, which is hard to do after all the inflammatory postings made in the OP's direction.

One of the coach's jobs is to win games using good sportsmanship.

The main debate is whether jwwashburn was breaking the rules of good sportsmanship when he tried to decieve the umpire.

Let's list some terms that we associate with sportsmanship, and discuss whether the attempt to decieve violated any of them.

Too late
 

I don't need to read any more negative comments about poor cell phone McGee. If you have any dignity left for Mr McGoo, why choose to continue to "dump on the young ump" and bring it here for the "umpteenth" time. All this could have been averted had the "coach" taught the little boy to run to the next base. There were some good comments provided by J Paco and others. But those comments have been "drowned out" trying to keep the rat in his box.

In summary 1) Rats have no business talking to the umpire after the game ends to clarify anything.
2) Rats have no business talking to the umpire between innings of a game to clarify anything. In short, the rat should have left the field without exchanging words with the umpire. He got away with some more cheese.
3) The only reason we discuss the proper or improper behavior of rats is to keep our cheese.

HA! Umpteenth........

Again, to clarify...a player/coach is a rat unless he corrects favorable calls in his favor. An umpire is not a rat if he rules against a team on close plays for the sole reason that he deems the coach to be a rat.

Also, an umpire has no responsibility to correct an incorrect judgment call(even if he realizes he kicked it)...the team who benefitted from that call should try and get it corrected in order to show integrity...and of course, if they do not...they are all rats.

In other words, umpires start out with the understanding that they are good, honest folks. Players/coaches are bad unless they take extraordinary efforts to help umpires correct calls that were ruled in their favor...but only calls in their favor. We really want them to keep their yaps shut if we screw them with a bad call.

Stop right there. You have just described Utopia.

I do not let my players argue with the umpire when they screw up a call against us, why in the world would I let them argue with the umpire who screwed up in our favor?

I will say this is new to me...I have never heard in my 15+ years of umpiring anyone espouse such a ridiculous standard for players. I have worked with who knows how many umpires with hundreds of years of experience and I have never heard this kind of idiocy from any of them. I have contacted at least fifteen good friends whom I have umpired with for years and each one of them them thought I was joking or could not even fathom that umpires actually would say a player lacked integrity for not trying to get a call reversed that went in his favor. I wonder what a poll would show here....

I would hope that most people who even disagree with my actions in the OP(which, by the way, I have many times said it would have been better if I had not said it) would not favor the lunacy of a player/coach trying to get an umpire to rule against him. I have been around sports all of my life in many different parts of the country...I have never heard this before.

The "young ump" is an adult who took a job that he was not qualified to do. He made no effort to do said job properly.

Incredible that you would say: "all this could have been averted....If the coach." The UMPIRE blew the incredibly easy call. He might have been the only person there that did not know that the kid was supposed to be out. Think about that...even the 9 year old players knew that this moron got the call wrong....even the grandmothers knew it. But, it is allllll the coach's fault.

Which is easier...teaching a 9 yr old to get to the base when he is crying or an adult umpire to call him out when he is tagged way off the base. Ohhh, poor Cell Phone McGhee had never seen a play like before.....the coach should have helped him....Booo hoooo!!!

The 9 yr old runner had never been beaned by a thrown ball while running before, either.

Another inflammatory post. All these shots are taken at jwwashburn, yet my post to LMan saying it was addition by subtraction when he left the board a couple years ago gets deleted!?!?! Where is the fairness and consistency in what posts get deleted and which ones don't? The irony of it all is that JM, a former baseball coach, started this massive pile on.

Again, wow!
 

Seriously, SAump? You take that attitude onto the field and think that you can officiate with integrity. Keep telling yourself that!

Ripleys' Beleive or Not Museum
 

Guess you didn't understand my message. It would be easier to agree that yes, the young umpire did err. I would not go any further than that.
So you had a dumb ump, possibly two. It would have been easier to educate both umpires. Remember your team's objective to legally score that run. As you continue to suggest, this would have been impossible for you to do in front of your players, fans and the other team. Incredible that you would say all this again. But knowing that, telling little Johnny not to stop until he reached the next base safely would not be very hard at all.

That ties for...well, you know... ;)
I got tired of the comments a long time ago as well.

I don't see the irony at all. JM may have been a coach but it sounds like he's now a solid umpire.

Perhaps you missed the central theme of my PM.

You, along with jw may occasionally wear an umpire's uniform and call games. You may even go to umpire meetings and umpire clinics. But when a critical event occurs, you both immediately think and react like rats. Your first impulse is not that of an umpires, but that of coach.

We are not naive. We know coaches lie. We're just amazed that they can lie and then say they didn't. Even more amazing is, like jw has stated, coaches will punish a player for telling the truth. Wow.

My point to you, my young Canadian friend, is that when you claim to be an umpire, but throw your lot in with coaches, act like a coach, think like a coach, respond like a coach and defend a lying coach who would punish a player for telling the truth, all on an umpire board, you have no right to be surprised or even offended when you are treated accordlingly.

When I first came to this site someone used to say there is a difference between an umpire who coaches and a coach who umpires. I believe you and jw have shown that to be true.

You need a new moniker. You have long stopped lurking.

But, let's talk integrity. What do you think about a coach who punished young players for telling the truth?

What should parents think about that?

I think this has gone on long enough.