Day 2...

[jdmara]

Day 2 wasn't drama-free unfortunately. Other than the extremely wet weather that caused 45 minutes of a delay, we had a tricky play that I believe we kicked.

R2 and R1 with 1 out. B4 hits a ball between F5 and F6. F5 lunges (not really a dive) for a ball but misses the ball. The ball passes F5 as F6 prepares to field the grounder in deep shortstop. The ball is halfway between F5 and F6 when R2 collides with F5. What's the call? I'm sure we kicked it but I want to see what you all say

-Josh

[UmpJM]

Josh,

As I'm picturing what you described, I would have obstruction on F5.

JM

[Ump153]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Josh,

As I'm picturing what you described, I would have obstruction on F5.

JM

Me, too.

[David B]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Day 2 wasn't drama-free unfortunately. Other than the extremely wet weather that caused 45 minutes of a delay, we had a tricky play that I believe we kicked.

R2 and R1 with 1 out. B4 hits a ball between F5 and F6. F5 lunges (not really a dive) for a ball but misses the ball. The ball passes F5 as F6 prepares to field the grounder in deep shortstop. The ball is halfway between F5 and F6 when R2 collides with F5. What's the call? I'm sure we kicked it but I want to see what you all say

-Josh

What a dumb baserunner, running into a fielder on the ground. But as far as a rule, it would have to be obstruction on F5 since he didn't have the ball.

Now what was your call that you kicked?

Thanks
David

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jdmara

R2 and R1 with 1 out. B4 hits a ball between F5 and F6. F5 lunges (not really a dive) for a ball but misses the ball. The ball passes F5 as F6 prepares to field the grounder in deep shortstop. The ball is halfway between F5 and F6 when R2 collides with F5. What's the call? I'm sure we kicked it but I want to see what you all say

So F5 lunges but he's still on his feet? If the runner's watching the ball, I guess I could see how he might collide with F5. If I'm picturing this right, it would definitely be OBS.

Next question would be the award. Nullifying the OBS will depend on whether F6 fields the ball: if so, I'd award 3B; if the ball gets into the outfield, I'd score R2.

[jdmara]

It's a difficult play to describe because time and distance is a factor in this play. Unfortunately I'm not very eloquent in describing it.

Let me try another way to describe it again and tell you our ruling.

R2 and R1 with 1 out. The middle infielders are playing deep and F5 is playing even (or slightly in front of) third base. The ball is hit to the left side of the infield (saying "between F5 and F6" maybe mischaracterizes the play). F5 takes off towards 2B and slightly back. Meanwhile, F6 running towards 3B if it gets past F5. F5 lunges (bends over and stretches) for the ball but misses it by a few inches. The ball was past F5 when R2 collides with F5. They both fell to the ground.

F5 went down hurt immediately, holding his leg. F6 picked up the ball and tagged R2 as we called time to help the injured player. At this point, my partner or myself had made any call. I think he was waiting for me and I was waiting for him.

We discussed the play while the coaches were helping the injured F5. We talked about it and said that although the ball was past F5, he was still in the act of fielding the ball. We didn't know if he would still be protected since the ball did get past him before contact was made. However, it was unreasonable, and impossible, for him to vacate "the baseline" in an instant.

Therefore, we determined it was incidental contact (for lack of a better term) We were actually leaning towards runner's interference but since the ball was past the fielder, we couldn't justify it. The offensive coach was reasonable with his acceptance of the decision but said he disagreed with the call.

I obviously have thought about this play a lot and I see where you could call obstruction but I'm having trouble with one key item.

1. When is the fielder no longer protected from (unintentional) contact by a baserunner?

8-4

ART. 2 . . . Any runner is out when he:

g. intentionally interferes with a throw or a thrown ball; or he hinders a fielder on his initial attempt to field a batted ball (exception 7-4-1f). A fielder is not protected, except from intentional contact if he misplays the ball and
has to move from his original location...

Does this rule mean that he is entitled to his "original location" for a reasonable amount of time? He obviously can't be expected to disappear in an instant, right?

Thanks Gentleman! I'm certain we didn't come up with the correct ruling but my tiny little brain can't reason this one out

-Josh

[David B]

Originally Posted by jdmara

It's a difficult play to describe because time and distance is a factor in this play. Unfortunately I'm not very eloquent in describing it.

Let me try another way to describe it again and tell you our ruling.

R2 and R1 with 1 out. The middle infielders are playing deep and F5 is playing even (or slightly in front of) third base. The ball is hit to the left side of the infield (saying "between F5 and F6" maybe mischaracterizes the play). F5 takes off towards 2B and slightly back. Meanwhile, F6 running towards 3B if it gets past F5. F5 lunges (bends over and stretches) for the ball but misses it by a few inches. The ball was past F5 when R2 collides with F5. They both fell to the ground.

F5 went down hurt immediately, holding his leg. F6 picked up the ball and tagged R2 as we called time to help the injured player. At this point, my partner or myself had made any call. I think he was waiting for me and I was waiting for him.

We discussed the play while the coaches were helping the injured F5. We talked about it and said that although the ball was past F5, he was still in the act of fielding the ball. We didn't know if he would still be protected since the ball did get past him before contact was made. However, it was unreasonable, and impossible, for him to vacate "the baseline" in an instant.

Therefore, we determined it was incidental contact (for lack of a better term) We were actually leaning towards runner's interference but since the ball was past the fielder, we couldn't justify it. The offensive coach was reasonable with his acceptance of the decision but said he disagreed with the call.

I obviously have thought about this play a lot and I see where you could call obstruction but I'm having trouble with one key item.

1. When is the fielder no longer protected from (unintentional) contact by a baserunner?



Does this rule mean that he is entitled to his "original location" for a reasonable amount of time? He obviously can't be expected to disappear in an instant, right?

Thanks Gentleman! I'm certain we didn't come up with the correct ruling but my tiny little brain can't reason this one out

-Josh

Good question, these are the plays where we have to be an umpire etc., (we have to make a decision based on what we see)

From my understanding, since this ball was not deflected by F1, the umpire can choose a fielder to protect. However, since the ball was past F5, and he did not have a play on the ball he is still guilty of obstruction.

From my reading the fielder is only protected on his "initial attempt" to field the ball.

Now if he deflected the ball and it's within his grasp (umpires judgement), then the umpire could judge that the runner interfered.

I'm sure some might have the official interpretations.

Thansk
David

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jdmara

1. When is the fielder no longer protected from (unintentional) contact by a baserunner?

Does this rule mean that he is entitled to his "original location" for a reasonable amount of time? He obviously can't be expected to disappear in an instant, right?

The fielder's protection ends when the ball gets past him. Your fielder was, as you've described it, clearly guilty of OBS. And yes, as "unreasonable" as it might be, a fielder IS expected to "disappear" if he should miss the ball. See Rule 2.00 "Obstruction (Comment)":

Originally Posted by Rule 2.00

"After a fielder has made an attempt to field a ball and
missed, he can no longer be in the “act of fielding” the ball. For example: an infielder dives at a ground
ball and the ball passes him and he continues to lie on the ground and delays the progress of the runner,
he very likely has obstructed the runner. "

J/R comments: "A fielder's 'try to field' a batted ball ends immediately upon missing or deflecting the ball, and such fielder must, in effect, disappear or risk obstruction."

Here's a play very like yours from J/R ("Obstruction without a play," p. 123 in my edition):

Originally Posted by Jaksa/Roder

R2 and R1, two outs. The batter grounds a ball toward the hole between the third baseman and the shortstop. The third baseman lunges for the ball but cannot reach it and it gets by him, and R2 has to sidestep him to avoid contact — obstruction has occurred. *snip*

The play goes on, but the relevant part is the OBS ruling. None of this, BTW, is any different for NFHS.

One more thing: you were wrong to kill the play because of an injury. I know everyone thinks a bump on the leg is the end of the world, but waiting 15 seconds for the play to end will not make any difference to the injured player. (If the player is unconscious, stops breathing, or is bleeding from the ears, then 15 seconds might make a difference and you should stop play and address the situation.)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The fielder's protection ends when the ball gets past him. Your fielder was, as you've described it, clearly guilty of OBS. And yes, as "unreasonable" as it might be, a fielder IS expected to "disappear" if he should miss the ball. See Rule 2.00 "Obstruction (Comment)":

I agree.

Since the fielder has an absolute right to field the batted ball, he has an absolute duty not to obstruct if he doesn't field the ball.

[RogersUmp]

and if in the OP F5 had knocked it down, tried to pick it up, dropped it and then there was contact...still OBS because the initial attempt was over when he dropped the ball?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RogersUmp

and if in the OP F5 had knocked it down, tried to pick it up, dropped it and then there was contact...still OBS because the initial attempt was over when he dropped the ball?

No, if the ball is within "a step and a reach," he's still in the act of fielding and still protected. Contact would then be interference.

The crucial difference is that in the OP the ball got past the fielder.

[jdmara]

Sounds great. Thanks for the clarifications. Just another reason to pick up a J/R

-Josh

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbyron

No, if the ball is within "a step and a reach," he's still in the act of fielding and still protected. Contact would then be interference.

The crucial difference is that in the OP the ball got past the fielder.

Can a fielder reacquire protection if he is in the act of fielding his own previously deflected ball? The play I'm thinking of is the NCAA play from last year where the pitcher deflected it off his foot, chased it and was in the act of fielding it when the BR ran into him near the first baseline.

From reading J/R and the MLBUM, my impression that in OBR at least, the answer is no. Once the fielder deflects the ball beyond a step and a reach, he cannot reacquire protection but another fielder can be protected. Am I correct in that understanding?

[johnnyg08]

The fielder already had one chance to field the ball and be protected. He booted the ball further than a step away, now he has to avoid the runner, batter/runner.

[Welpe]

I think I agree as I found the following from J/R after a little more digging.

"A fielder cannot be privileged if he is chasing a batted ball that has been deflected or missed. If, however, he is trying to field a ball that has been deflected by another fielder, he can be privileged."