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-   -   Never seen this before (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/53323-never-seen-before.html)

bob jenkins Sat May 23, 2009 08:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 (Post 604208)
Then why in 3-man with a left handed batter up and R1 does the PU not check with the U1 and instead checks with U3 who is in the middle? If the U1 can see a lefty's check swing better, why bother checking with the guy in the middle?
That is why some leagues have gone to checking with they guy on the wing.

Tim C posted something about a "study" once -- maybe he'll post it again.

In any event, I've called it from every batter - position combination (except D with a RH batter), and I never guessed at the call.

mbyron Sat May 23, 2009 08:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 (Post 604208)
Then why in 3-man with a left handed batter up and R1 does the PU not check with the U1 and instead checks with U3 who is in the middle? If the U1 can see a lefty's check swing better, why bother checking with the guy in the middle?
That's the current PBUC mechanic. Dash's point was that they're testing a new mechanic. The rationale for the new mechanic is that "wing" umpires get a better view of how far the bat goes.

dash_riprock Sat May 23, 2009 08:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by tballump (Post 604199)

Does anyone ever stick to their guns when they clearly see the call and make the call and it 'is not' a help situation?...If there are calls and situations that let you get help, fine, but if you clearly see what happened, make the call and stand behind it...
You don't have that option on a request for a check swing appeal in OBR or NCAA.

Rich Sat May 23, 2009 10:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 (Post 604108)
I didn't guess, because he didn't ask. Are you saying that you can correctly rule on a checked swing from A with a left-handed batter up? Good luck. If my partner came to me on that he would have to pull my foot out of his rectum in the parking lot.

In the second scenario, he wasn't asked. That was my point. The moron down the row thought the PU was asking for a checked swing appeal with his left hand, when in reality he was pointing at the swing for a swinging strike call. I know that he can rule if asked, but he wasn't.
I would come to you every time I was asked. I can make that call from A just as easily as everywhere else. As others have said, the only criteria is: Do I think he offered? If I do, it's a strike. If not, it's a ball. No big deal. I've called strikes on LH batters from A in college games without any real fuss.

Rich Sat May 23, 2009 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zm1283 (Post 604209)
And those who make blanket statements are often wrong.



I don't disagree with this at all. If I go to my partner, I want him to give me what he has. But, most veteran guys I have worked with will not come to me in A with a left handed batter up in the first place. I just don't see how you can see that all that well since the batter has his back to you and unless he REALLY offered at the pitch (Which should be obvious and be called a strike by the PU to begin with), the bat won't be visible very well. Maybe it will come with experience.
Those veteran guys must go in OBR/NCAA games and really should in FED games as well. If you didn't see an offer, you simply give a safe signal and life goes on. If he refuses, then he gets into a pissing match with the catcher/coach and what does that serve?

I watched an ejection from the C position when my partner wouldn't come to me in a HS game about 15 years ago and one thing led to another and ... . Thing is, the batter offered and I wouldn't have hesitated to punch his ticket. But I never was asked, although I got to play rodeo clown.

tballump Sun May 24, 2009 01:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dash_riprock (Post 604230)
You don't have that option on a request for a check swing appeal in OBR or NCAA.
In the OP, the fifth sentence said, "PU pointed and said he swung". Therefore my comment, "Does anyone ever stick to their guns when they clearly see the call and it's not a help situation? If there are calls that you let you get help, fine, but if you clearly see what happened, make the call and stand behind it. In the OP the PU who had just pointed and said he swung on the check swing, then he asked for help.

Since the PU clearly saw the swing and pointed and said he swung, he does not have the option of asking for help on a request for a check swing appeal in OBR or NCAA. If he 'had not' "pointed and said he swung", you are absolutely correct that the PU must ask for help and I so stated that if there is a call (no he didn't go) that let's you get help, fine, go ahead and ask for help on a request for a check swing appeal as OBR and NCAA say you must. Sorry drr, I was referring to the OP not the second part of this post.

alex7 Mon May 25, 2009 02:47am
official rule for this
 
From OBR:
Rule 9.02(c) Comment: The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike.

The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing.

Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.

umpduck11 Mon May 25, 2009 11:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by harmbu (Post 603789)
I was at a district championship game last night and saw something I though was interesting. FED rules. In the top of the sixth inning, B1 attempted to check his swing on an 0-1 pitch. PU pointed and said he swung. The visiting coach asked the count and was informed that it was 0-2. He called time and approached the PU. I was sitting right behind the backstop and heard the following exchange.

PU: Before you start, we are not going to discuss balls and strikes.

Coach: Okay. I just wanted to know if you called that a swing or the pitch was a strike.

PU: I called it a swing.

Coach: Can I just ask that you get help.

PU: I will if I am not sure about a swing.

Coach: I mean on that pitch. Can you appeal.

PU: Sure.

At this point I am fully expecting the BU to confirm that it was a swing. PU points and BU give the safe signal. PU immediately shows the count as 1-1 and the game resumes. Don't know if this was the proper procedure, but I am sure it is as the PU was our local rules interpreter.
This was your rules interpreter ? Did he have a seious brain spasm, or does he not know what he's doing ?

tballump Mon May 25, 2009 02:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alex7 (Post 604453)
From OBR:
Rule 9.02(c) Comment: The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike.

The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing.

Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.
However, this is not to be misread, that if the pitch is a ball in the dirt but the PU points and said 'yes he went' on the check swing, that the offensive coach (as in the OP) may now appeal the check swing (that was called a strike by the PU) due to fact that the actual pitch location was a ball.

bob jenkins Mon May 25, 2009 03:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tballump (Post 604503)
However, this is not to be misread, that if the pitch is a ball in the dirt but the PU points and said 'yes he went' on the check swing, that the offensive coach (as in the OP) may now appeal the check swing (that was called a strike by the PU) due to fact that the actual pitch location was a ball.
That's not at all what the rule says. The rule is there because with all else that PU has to watch, he might not see a swing. SO, a "no swing" call can be appealed.

If PU has seen a swing then this cannot be appealed.

umpjong Mon May 25, 2009 05:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 604510)
That's not at all what the rule says. The rule is there because with all else that PU has to watch, he might not see a swing. SO, a "no swing" call can be appealed.

If PU has seen a swing then this cannot be appealed.
His premise would also in effect be giving the base umpire the appeal on the pitch location also.

"due to fact that the actual pitch location was a ball."

yawetag Mon May 25, 2009 07:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tballump (Post 604503)
However, this is not to be misread, that if the pitch is a ball in the dirt but the PU points and said 'yes he went' on the check swing, that the offensive coach (as in the OP) may now appeal the check swing (that was called a strike by the PU) due to fact that the actual pitch location was a ball.
I think that's obvious. If the pitch were a strike, it wouldn't matter if the batter attempted to hit the pitch or not.

DG Mon May 25, 2009 08:17pm
I don't cover everything possible in pregame but this I cover.."I am automatic on check swing requests, if they ask, I ask so be alive wherever you are. If I missed a strike I want it back so give me what you got."

DonInKansas Mon May 25, 2009 08:19pm
I'm with DG. I always ask as well, no matter what rule code. Never miss an opportunity to find a strike.


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