Never seen this before
 

I was at a district championship game last night and saw something I though was interesting. FED rules. In the top of the sixth inning, B1 attempted to check his swing on an 0-1 pitch. PU pointed and said he swung. The visiting coach asked the count and was informed that it was 0-2. He called time and approached the PU. I was sitting right behind the backstop and heard the following exchange.

PU: Before you start, we are not going to discuss balls and strikes.

Coach: Okay. I just wanted to know if you called that a swing or the pitch was a strike.

PU: I called it a swing.

Coach: Can I just ask that you get help.

PU: I will if I am not sure about a swing.

Coach: I mean on that pitch. Can you appeal.

PU: Sure.

At this point I am fully expecting the BU to confirm that it was a swing. PU points and BU give the safe signal. PU immediately shows the count as 1-1 and the game resumes. Don't know if this was the proper procedure, but I am sure it is as the PU was our local rules interpreter.

At least around here, it seems to be a personal choice for a PU to appeal to the BU on an attempted check swing that the PU concludes he did swing. Others around here will pregame that "if I come to you on a check swing, agree with what I called". I, personally, don't have a problem going to the BU if I'm in doubt. If they say something that I didn't, I want them to make the correct call (not the call that is going to save my butt).

This situation does happen on occasion but I don't believe that I've ever appealed on a swing I said he did.

-Josh

harmbu,

That was absolutely NOT proper procedure.

There is no appeal on a pitch the PU ruled that the batter offered on.

JM

Maybe I'm misinterpreting the discussion but I believe the coach is asking to appeal the check swing for the last ball pitched, not whether the pitch was a strike. It's not really an everyday appeal but if it's done civilly, why not...

-Josh

An appeal can only be asked on a swing that the PU has considered check and the pitch was ruled a ball. You cannot appeal a swing that has been considered a strike. So here is the thought pattern:

1. Was the pitch a strike? If yes: STRIKE, if no: continue to #2.
2. Did the batter strike at the pitch? If yes: STRIKE, if no: continue to #3.
3. Rule pitch a BALL. If coach appeals swing only, continue to #4.
4. Ask BU if player struck at ball. If yes: STRIKE, if no: ball stands.

Because it's contrary to the rules. Only a "no swing" can be appealed. A "swing" cannot.

The PU kicked it; the BU kicked it; the opposing coach kicked it; and the requesting coach chuckles his way back to the dugout.

I was PU in a three-man tournament game in anouther part of the state last week, and the crew chief (who was U1) said during the pregame discussion, "Don't hesitate to ask for help if you rule the batter went, and the coach is giving you grief." I was flabergasted as I had never heard anything like this before, so I asked for clarification. He said they (he and U3) would echo my call of strike, just to help get the coach off my back.

My training was: If you know he went, call the strike. If you are not sure, go for help without being asked. If you say he did not, go for help if asked. I am not going to call the swing unless I am sure he went, and once I call it, I am able to take the heat.

Is going for help after calling a swing just to appease the coach something gaining acceptance?

Here is how the conversation should have gone:

PU: Before you start, we are not going to discuss balls and strikes.

Coach: Okay. I just wanted to know if you called that a swing or the pitch was a strike.

PU: I called it a swing.

Coach: Can I just ask that you get help.

PU: Coach, I called the swing, not the pitch. It's a strike and there is no appeal on a strike call.

You never, never allow an appeal of a strike call, no matter what rule set, how old the players or how polite the coach is. A strike is a strike and that is all there is to that!

Oh and the PU was an idiot for asking and the BU was a a$$hole for even responding at all!

So the response to the requesting coach would be: You can't request appeal on a pitch that I called a swinging strike. I suppose this should be pregamed esp if you're working w/ somebody new or "suspect"

There is probably a reason I've never done it but if Bob says it's incorrect procedure, I guess I'll have to jump to the other side of the fence on this topic :o

-Josh

Ok, I get it.
 

I guess I am not good enough to take me at my word. I even gave you a list. And this is how you treat me? By taking the word of some "moderator" that has like 7K posts? Fine, fine. But don't come crawling back to me when this "Bob" character turns his back on you. :mad: (:D:D)

Good one! :D

:D

-Josh

This would be about number 4768 on my list of things to pre-game. Heck, you may as well pregame "I signal outs with my right hand -- how do you do it?"

Pretty much!

when he began arguing your called strike on the swing, he is now arguing balls and strikes. What he should have added is... well now coach that is balls and strikes and were not discussing it any further, you can return to your bench or leave.

Exactly.

I like what Ozzy wrote. Exactly how it should happen.

Thnaks
David

Like most here, I'm going to say "Yes he did" while pointing at the batter if I rule a check swing a strike. If the coach starts asking me if it's on the pitch or the swing, I might just reply back that he will see me indicate it if its on the swing. Hopefully that will put that nonsense to rest.

Whaaaaaa? :confused: Say it with me, now:

"Check swing strikes are not appeal-able."

Had this scenario happen to me in the playoffs this year, albeit on a bunt. OC wanted me to appeal, I informed him there was no appeal on a strike called due to an attempt. End of discussion, and we moved on...

There is no appeal on a strike called, period.

There's also the story Ron Luciano told in one of his books. Working with Emmett Ashford at first, Ron called a swinging strike on a check-swing. When the offensive manager told him to get help, Ron did, and Emmett affirmed the call. Luciano's response to the manager? "There- now you've got it in black and white."

I know how most here feel about Luciano, but that was his take on the sitch.

If it's ruled a strike, it's a swing, not a check-swing. Can't appeal what it isn't.

Or something.:D

That seems a bit confrontational to me. Granted, I wasn't there to see any non-verbal actions by the coach, but can't see myself ever starting a conversation like that.

Not only that, but then he compounded it by breaking the rule which says that strike calls can't be appealed. He went from one extreme to the other in one conversation. Weak a$$.

I had a conversation like this twice this year, with the same coach, in two games about a month apart.

If I were coaching I think I would look up that rule after the first game, but...well, that's what I get for thinking. :p

Coach might have been working you. Apparently you can get some umpires to reverse a strike call.

I think this is really going on way too much. I've noticed the last couple of seasons that coaches now want to appeal "everything".

The only thing I can think of is that there are "lots of umpires" who are allowing them to appeal things that should "not" be appealed.

Thanks
David

I kinda disagree. I believe that there are "lots of umpires" who, when asked to appeal to their partner, do so, when they should just stick with their own call instead....

I agree with Dave B...sometimes we just have to tell the coach..."there's no way I'm asking my partner...he's not even supposed to be watching _______." Or "I am 100% sure of what I saw, I'm not asking him."

Speaking of check swing appeals. I was in the A position a few weeks ago with a left-handed batter up. The pitch is a ball and the batter check swings. The defense is hollering to "check him, check him!". I can't hear my partner but I see him telling the catcher that he's not about to appeal that. The defensive team was in the first base dugout, so the coaches were right there. The acted like they couldn't figure out why we couldn't appeal that. I just said "Guys, I would be guessing if I called that".

On another note, I was at a AA game on Monday night. The home team's batter (left-handed) check swings and the PU points with his left hand and hammers the strike. The U3 was in the B spot so I knew the PU wasn't asking for help. The guys down the row from us (They were self-described umpiring experts) kept going on about "That guy can't see that, how can he appeal that?!" I was going to correct them, but then I remembered the thing about blissful ignorance.

You shouldn't be guessing (or need to guess) from A, and the umnpire in B certainly could have made a call had he been asked.

I didn't guess, because he didn't ask. Are you saying that you can correctly rule on a checked swing from A with a left-handed batter up? Good luck. If my partner came to me on that he would have to pull my foot out of his rectum in the parking lot.

In the second scenario, he wasn't asked. That was my point. The moron down the row thought the PU was asking for a checked swing appeal with his left hand, when in reality he was pointing at the swing for a swinging strike call. I know that he can rule if asked, but he wasn't.

Technically speaking you could be out in CF and make an appeal call. The overall driving idea being: did the batter strike at the pitch?

And yes, you can make a check swing call on a LHB from A. Especially if you saw the end-cap of the bat, then I would say the batter has struck at the pitch. (This would be a case where maybe the PU was blocked by F2 coming up and unable to see the swing/end of the swing).

[Edit: I am speaking in regards to 2-man mechanics. If it makes any difference.]

You can easily see a swing on a lefty from the A (better than you can from the B or C). I believe PBUC is now experimenting with PU going to the wing umpire (3-man) on check swing appeals.

BU in A can absolutely make a good appeal call on a lefthanders check swing. Im curious where in any book it says otherwise.....

those who say you can't probably haven't watched, played, or worked much baseball

If you are working a game under OBR, the PU must grant the check swing appeal if requested by the defense. Not true in Fed, but it is something to keep in mind.

I'm not sure if you do this or not, but it is a fairly common misconception that the bat must travel past the front of the plate to rule that a batter did not check his swing (that he "went"). All you have the judge is if the batter offered at the pitch.

Had to rule many checked swings from A with a left-handed batter, and never once have I had a problem correctly ascertaining whether or not the batter made an attempt. Plus, I have never resorted to putting my foot up my partner's a$$ over it.

Which is why I include the following in my pregame when I'm working the bases -

If you want help on a check swing come to me regardless of where I'm positioned or who is batting and I'll give you what I got. I don't get crazy about it like some guys.

I will shorten it up even further.

Me: no comment until he speaks
Coach: I just wanted to know if you called that a swing or the pitch was a strike.
Me: swing
Coach: Can I just ask that you get help.
Me: you just did and no

I cannot believe there are umpires are getting to the district playoffs that are appealing a checked swing as the PU that they have already ruled was a swing. There is just too much information out there, not just on this forum, for this to happen. Here we go with that 'help call' get it right at all costs song and dance routine again.

Does anyone ever stick to their guns when they clearly see the call and make the call and it 'is not' a help situation? Too bad, if later on you learn on instant replay that you really missed the call. That is just part of the game. If there are calls and situations that let you get help, fine, but if you clearly see what happened, make the call and stand behind it. If you have to eject an upset coach, so be it, even if it is in the playoffs. Good chance his cherry has been popped already, and if not, oh well, there is always a first time. That appealing coach had to be laughing his a-- off on this one.

I always tell my partner, "give me what you have" as PU. If I'm BU I'll tell my PU I'm giving what I have. And no way are we using any secret code like, "If I say 'he didn't go, did he?' I want you to back up my call." Fortunately I see fewer and fewer guys who "get crazy about it."

Then why in 3-man with a left handed batter up and R1 does the PU not check with the U1 and instead checks with U3 who is in the middle? If the U1 can see a lefty's check swing better, why bother checking with the guy in the middle?

And those who make blanket statements are often wrong.

I don't disagree with this at all. If I go to my partner, I want him to give me what he has. But, most veteran guys I have worked with will not come to me in A with a left handed batter up in the first place. I just don't see how you can see that all that well since the batter has his back to you and unless he REALLY offered at the pitch (Which should be obvious and be called a strike by the PU to begin with), the bat won't be visible very well. Maybe it will come with experience.

That is why some leagues have gone to checking with they guy on the wing.

Tim C posted something about a "study" once -- maybe he'll post it again.

In any event, I've called it from every batter - position combination (except D with a RH batter), and I never guessed at the call.

That's the current PBUC mechanic. Dash's point was that they're testing a new mechanic. The rationale for the new mechanic is that "wing" umpires get a better view of how far the bat goes.

You don't have that option on a request for a check swing appeal in OBR or NCAA.

I would come to you every time I was asked. I can make that call from A just as easily as everywhere else. As others have said, the only criteria is: Do I think he offered? If I do, it's a strike. If not, it's a ball. No big deal. I've called strikes on LH batters from A in college games without any real fuss.

Those veteran guys must go in OBR/NCAA games and really should in FED games as well. If you didn't see an offer, you simply give a safe signal and life goes on. If he refuses, then he gets into a pissing match with the catcher/coach and what does that serve?

I watched an ejection from the C position when my partner wouldn't come to me in a HS game about 15 years ago and one thing led to another and ... . Thing is, the batter offered and I wouldn't have hesitated to punch his ticket. But I never was asked, although I got to play rodeo clown.

In the OP, the fifth sentence said, "PU pointed and said he swung". Therefore my comment, "Does anyone ever stick to their guns when they clearly see the call and it's not a help situation? If there are calls that you let you get help, fine, but if you clearly see what happened, make the call and stand behind it. In the OP the PU who had just pointed and said he swung on the check swing, then he asked for help.

Since the PU clearly saw the swing and pointed and said he swung, he does not have the option of asking for help on a request for a check swing appeal in OBR or NCAA. If he 'had not' "pointed and said he swung", you are absolutely correct that the PU must ask for help and I so stated that if there is a call (no he didn't go) that let's you get help, fine, go ahead and ask for help on a request for a check swing appeal as OBR and NCAA say you must. Sorry drr, I was referring to the OP not the second part of this post.

official rule for this
 

From OBR:
Rule 9.02(c) Comment: The manager or the catcher may request the plate umpire to ask his partner for help on a half swing when the plate umpire calls the pitch a ball, but not when the pitch is called a strike.

The manager may not complain that the umpire made an improper call, but only that he did not ask his partner for help. Field umpires must be alerted to the request from the plate umpire and quickly respond. Managers may not protest the call of a ball or strike on the pretense they are asking for information about a half swing.

Appeals on a half swing may be made only on the call of ball and when asked to appeal, the home plate umpire must refer to a base umpire for his judgment on the half swing. Should the base umpire call the pitch a strike, the strike call shall prevail.

This was your rules interpreter ? Did he have a seious brain spasm, or does he not know what he's doing ?

However, this is not to be misread, that if the pitch is a ball in the dirt but the PU points and said 'yes he went' on the check swing, that the offensive coach (as in the OP) may now appeal the check swing (that was called a strike by the PU) due to fact that the actual pitch location was a ball.

That's not at all what the rule says. The rule is there because with all else that PU has to watch, he might not see a swing. SO, a "no swing" call can be appealed.

If PU has seen a swing then this cannot be appealed.

His premise would also in effect be giving the base umpire the appeal on the pitch location also.

"due to fact that the actual pitch location was a ball."

I think that's obvious. If the pitch were a strike, it wouldn't matter if the batter attempted to hit the pitch or not.

I don't cover everything possible in pregame but this I cover.."I am automatic on check swing requests, if they ask, I ask so be alive wherever you are. If I missed a strike I want it back so give me what you got."

I'm with DG. I always ask as well, no matter what rule code. Never miss an opportunity to find a strike.