CB Bucknor

[mrm21711]

Anybody see Bucknor behind the plate in tonight's Indians-Red Sox game? In the course of 2 pitches, he did the following:

1) He ruled Mike Lowell out on a foul tipped third strike when the ball clearly hit the ground. He appealed to first base umpire Mike Everitt who correctly ruled the ball hit the ground and then was gloved by the catcher. Bucknor called the Indians back on the field.

2) One pitch later, Lowell hits a ball down the third base line. DeRosa grabs the ball behind the bag (he grabbed it in foul territory) but it appeared the ball went over the base before touched by DeRosa. It also appeared that third base umpire Brian Gorman ruled fair but Bucknor somehow ruled foul. How can Bucknor rule foul on a ground ball down the line - doesnt 3B have any fair/foul decision at or beyond the base?

In the clip below, it certainly appears DeRosa looks back at Gorman who signaled fair ball before DeRosa notices Bucknor calling the ball foul. You can also see Eric Wedge talking to Gorman and Gorman saying "talk to him he made the call."

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | BOS@CLE: Wedge gets ejected for arguing a foul call - Video | indians.com: Multimedia

[zm1283]

On #1 he ended up getting it right. Yeah he missed the foul ball in the first place, but it's a tough call.

On #2 there are two things:

1) The U3 (Is that the proper term for the third base umpire?) was blocked by DeRosa's body when he fielded the ball. I assume the U3 has the fair/foul call past the bag (Which it was), but I don't know how he could see that.

2) I think the ball was fair. DeRosa's feet are right on the line in foul territory and by the time he touches the ball he's moving back toward fair territory. It was very close. I'm not sure because neither angle they show is very good, but I could see why he thought it was fair.

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by zm1283

On #1 he ended up getting it right. Yeah he missed the foul ball in the first place, but it's a tough call.

On #2 there are two things:

1) The U3 (Is that the proper term for the third base umpire?) was blocked by DeRosa's body when he fielded the ball. I assume the U3 has the fair/foul call past the bag (Which it was), but I don't know how he could see that.

2) I think the ball was fair. DeRosa's feet are right on the line in foul territory and by the time he touches the ball he's moving back toward fair territory. It was very close. I'm not sure because neither angle they show is very good, but I could see why he thought it was fair.

Wedge said Bucknor overruled Gorman in his post game press conference.

[tballump]

Notice how Wedge holds up 2 fingers for that's 2 you hosed me on. Definitely right on the ball catching the dirt first right between the catchers legs but a terrible angle for us here on the 3rd base line call to tell. But typical rat to put up 2 fingers like he is being hosed twice to also show up the umpires.

[ozzy6900]

If you look very carefully at the video of Lowell's at bat, the ball appears to bounce in the batter's box before heading down the 3rd base line! I can't get a clear picture but if this is the case, it's a good call!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

If you look very carefully at the video of Lowell's at bat, the ball appears to bounce in the batter's box before heading down the 3rd base line! I can't get a clear picture but if this is the case, it's a good call!

Why would the ball bouncing in the batter's box make it a foul ball?

[David B]

Originally Posted by mrm21711

Anybody see Bucknor behind the plate in tonight's Indians-Red Sox game? In the course of 2 pitches, he did the following:

1) He ruled Mike Lowell out on a foul tipped third strike when the ball clearly hit the ground. He appealed to first base umpire Mike Everitt who correctly ruled the ball hit the ground and then was gloved by the catcher. Bucknor called the Indians back on the field.

2) One pitch later, Lowell hits a ball down the third base line. DeRosa grabs the ball behind the bag (he grabbed it in foul territory) but it appeared the ball went over the base before touched by DeRosa. It also appeared that third base umpire Brian Gorman ruled fair but Bucknor somehow ruled foul. How can Bucknor rule foul on a ground ball down the line - doesnt 3B have any fair/foul decision at or beyond the base?

In the clip below, it certainly appears DeRosa looks back at Gorman who signaled fair ball before DeRosa notices Bucknor calling the ball foul. You can also see Eric Wedge talking to Gorman and Gorman saying "talk to him he made the call."

Baseball Video Highlights & Clips | BOS@CLE: Wedge gets ejected for arguing a foul call - Video | indians.com: Multimedia

I thought he got the calls right. Watched again this morning on DVR and no way U3 can see that play. Also, the ball is barely past the bag with 3B clearly in foul territory with both feet.

ESPN never showed a good angle but from watching it several times, it looked foul to me so I would say good overrule since he knew U3 couldn't see it.

One thing about it, the PU could get a good look since it was a slow grounder, which gave him time to get out and look at it.

One thing is that base coach thought it was foul, and then coach doesn't really argue the foul, he's arguing because the umpires had two versions.
Finally he wanted to get tossed just to stand up for his players.

On the play in the dirt, that was a tough call, even on DVR, I don't see it "clearly" in the dirt. BU should be helping on those, we use signal to help, MLB must not.

Thanks
David

[gfgartland]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Why would the ball bouncing in the batter's box make it a foul ball?

If the ball hit the dirt in batters box, behind the foul line, and then was caught behind the bag at 3rd in foul territory then it is almost impossible for the ball to arch over to fair and cross the bag making it a fair ball.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by gfgartland

If the ball hit the dirt in batters box, behind the foul line, and then was caught behind the bag at 3rd in foul territory then it is almost impossible for the ball to arch over to fair and cross the bag making it a fair ball.

"Almost impossible" is no basis for a ruling.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Why would the ball bouncing in the batter's box make it a foul ball?

For the same reason it's foul when it hits the plate, Bob. You mean you didn't know that??? Why, I'm surprised at you!

[gfgartland]

Originally Posted by mbyron

"Almost impossible" is no basis for a ruling.

I say almost impossible because I was not looking down the line to see the ball in flight.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by gfgartland

If the ball hit the dirt in batters box, behind the foul line, and then was caught behind the bag at 3rd in foul territory then it is almost impossible for the ball to arch over to fair and cross the bag making it a fair ball.

But it obviously (at least to me) bounced somewhere else as well -- otherwise it would have been a "caught" ball when gloved by the third baseman.

[UMP25]

Five bucks says we'll get this and other weird schit in our series this upcoming weekend--you know, the series that typically features every strange thing in the book.

[Durham]

None of know how this crew works and none of us know what they pre-gamed about these types of plays. None of us has been provided with any video of U3's reaction to the play, I mean we can't read his eyes or body language.

With that said, most of the crews I work on agree that Bag and beyond is the safe and standard mechanic that we use, but we add to it.

Balls in the cutout, either behind or in front of the bag may require good eye contact espeacally if the play is not routine, ie body positioning of fielder or runner and fielder near the ball and line.

Example, two Saturdays ago I was U3 with a runner on 3rd only. Hasrd hit bounding ball down the 3rd BL that hits R3 in the left butt cheek about 15 feet in front of the bag. The catcher moved into the PU's path and I read my partner late to get on the line and his eyes were saying, "Oh ****!" We have worked together before and always pre-gamed this, so I came up and sold a foul call hard and he echoed right away.

After the game he said thanks for reading me beacuse that was close and I got caugt up with the catcher and couldn't get the look I wanted to have. I smiled and said, you would have done the same thing. And he agreed.

I am not saying that this is what happened in this play, but I can see that something like it might have. U3 is behind and has a great look at the line, but is blocked from the ball by F5's body. The PU got out fast and hard and was in great position to see the ball, the line and the fielder. Maybe the PU saw something in U3 that caused him to make the call, or maybe he saw it at the bag and took the call as his.

Either way the thing that we can learn from this is work hard to make eye contact with your partners on these types of calls. If you do you will most likely prevent double calls.

When I am rushed and my pre-game is brief I tell my partners, if you do nothing else on the field today, "MAKE EYE CONTACT!" Umpiring is so much easier when the crew is using good communication and on the same page.

[UMP25]

I know of a lot of people who personally believe Bucknor is one of the worst umpires in MLB. For one thing, it seems he's involved in some kind of controversy every game he works. Just sayin'.