Re: Help/oridrax

t2nyval · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 25, 2002, 09:24pm

Regarding the responses to oridrax earlier quesion "help": So a runner leaving early and not "tagging up" is not a force out at the base he left early from???? Ok, R2, R3, fly ball, R2 leaves early, he "lolligags" between the bases until R3 scores all the while defense has the ball on 2B. Whats the deal with this scenario. Am I to interpret the response to oridrax's question that the runner who left early isnt out unless he's tagged? Thats a new one on me. Please clarify.

PeteBooth · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 25, 2002, 10:42pm

Originally posted by t2nyval

Regarding the responses to oridrax earlier quesion "help": So a runner leaving early and not "tagging up" is not a force out at the base he left early from???? Ok, R2, R3, fly ball, R2 leaves early, he "lolligags" between the bases until R3 scores all the while defense has the ball on 2B. Whats the deal with this scenario. Am I to interpret the response to oridrax's question that the runner who left early isnt out unless he's tagged? Thats a new one on me. Please clarify.

You need to READ the defintion of a Force Play. When we have r2/r3, that is not a Force situation. This is a TIME situation.

If a runner leaves early, and the ball is caught, the defense can either tag the base (which is the normal cource of action) or the runner. However, in either situation it's the Timing of the events that matters.

If F8 catches ball and doubles r2 off of second BEFORE r3 scores, the run does not count. If R3 scores BEFORE F8 throws to F4 to double up R2, the runs counts.

The applicable rules are OBR Rule 2 - Definition of Force and 7.08(d)

OBR 7.08 Any runner is out when_
(d) He fails to retouch his base after a fair or foul ball is legally caught before he, or his base, is tagged by a fielder.

Pete Booth

t2nyval · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 26, 2002, 08:02am

I understand. I was looking too deeply into how "timing" played into it. I see that as long as the base OR runner who left early is tagged BEFORE the run scores the run does NOT count. Thanks, Tony

greymule · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 26, 2002, 08:05am

Just a note about this play: when you make the correct call, at least half the ballpark will think you're wrong.

You might think about how you would handle the following play. I have had this one, and it's not as easy as it seems, especially if the coaches don't know what they're doing (always a possibility).

R3, R2, 1 out. Liner to short left center. R3 and R2 take off running. F7 makes the catch. R3 scores but did not tag up. R2 is hopelessly standing on 3B as F7 leisurely doubles him off at 2B.

What do you rule as the umpire? What if the defense, after the third out at 2B, leaves the field?

Last Saturday, I had the following play in SP softball, but the same rule would apply in baseball: R2, 1 out. Batter hits fly ball to left center. R2 takes off for 3B. F7 catches the ball and throws it back to the infield. R2 rounds 3B but misses it and, assuming he's an easy out, stands six feet down the base line as the ball rolls past everybody to F2, who proceeds to throw the ball into right field. R2 now figures it might be worth a try to get back to 2B, so he runs directly in a line to 2B and makes it safely.

The defense came screaming to me that R2 was "out of the baseline," but since he wasn't avoiding a tag, I couldn't rule him out. FINALLY, somebody said, "He didn't tag third on his way back to second!" So now we have the "out" call. F5 then cooled off and laughingly said, "I knew he done somethin' wrong, but I just didn't know how to say it." True.

The offense then claimed that since R2 missed 3B the first time around, he didn't have to touch it on the return to 2B.

A footnote: BEFORE this play, R2 had asked me how many outs there were. His 3B coach had also reminded him. Believe it or not, these were two good teams that routinely win big tournaments. I guess if plays don't involve balls blasted over the fence, they get a little confused.

[Edited by greymule on Jun 26th, 2002 at 09:09 AM]

insatty · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 26, 2002, 01:08pm

In Greymule's first situation, the defense must properly appeal at 3B for an advantatgeous fourth out to negate the R3's run. If the defense leaves the field, no appeal is allowed. Otherwise, R3's run stands.

greymule · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 26, 2002, 01:47pm

Insatty is right. If the defensive players think the third out somehow negates R3's run and leave the field, R3's run counts.

But after the third out at 2B, do you announce, "Run scores"? Do you say nothing and THEN announce it when it's too late to appeal?

bob jenkins · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Jun 27, 2002, 11:20am

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
Insatty is right. If the defensive players think the third out somehow negates R3's run and leave the field, R3's run counts.

But after the third out at 2B, do you announce, "Run scores"? Do you say nothing and THEN announce it when it's too late to appeal?

As always, you do whatever you'd if the runner hadn't missed the base -- that way you avoid tipping anyone off.

Unless the appeal is "immediate," announce that the run scores, if it was close enough for there to be a question.