Let's have a thread about strike zones!

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by mroyal

... Framing is a negative for me (whether you pull, push, pluck or yank).

mroyal,

I would not consider any of those actions "framing".

Framing is when the catcher "sticks it" without moving his glove afer the catch and holds it for a "scant second" to show the PU that's exactly where he wanted the pitch to be.

JM

[johnnyg08]

I have to educate some of the younger catchers who will "frame" every pitch...especially the very obvious balls. As posted earlier, usually one friendly message in the ear hole does the job...typically catchers know to try and build a rapport w/ PU

[JFlores]

according to fans, strike zones are like a$$holes, every umpire has one and they all stink.

[JR12]

Usually if it cuts my zone, it's a strike. However sometimes you have a catcher who turns his mitt down to catch one right at the knee. Then sometimes the catcher sets up right on one corner and the pitcher hits the other corner. The catcher has to reach way over and fall to his knees to catch the pitch. Hard to give him those.

[johnnyg08]

There's as much art to calling balls and strikes as there is science. The best umpires have mastered the fine line between the art and the science.

[PeteBooth]

The "old" strike zone question

The strike zone is defined as that which is accepted in the leagues we service meaning the strike zone at the modified HS level is NOT the same as the varsity level or Collegiate level.

The BOOK definition does NOT differentiate age groups it is a "blanket" statement. One cannot expect a 7th/8th grader to have the same control as an 18 year old varisy pitcher or a 20-21 yr. old college pitcher.

As far as F2 goes I agree with Bob. I am NOT going to call a pitch a ball (that is a strike) simply because F2 is not doing his job correctly. We need strikes and if F2 cannot play the position we do the best we can.

Yes if F2 is "swatting" at the borderline pitches on or "just off" the corner it is difficult to call them strikes but again it depends upon the age group you are umpiring.

Bottom line as they say in Brooklyn NY "FORGET ABOUT IT" when it comes to F2. if it's a strike call it.

Pete Booth

[Durham]

Last week during a mid-week DI plate job I had a curve ball that split the plate both ways, up-down and side-side. The catcher jumped, dropped, then raised slightly and got hit in the chest protector on the pitch. The 3rd base coach, yes an assistant who caught in college, said, "Come on Ken, you can't reward him on that." I responded, "Reward!!!! You tell me what part of the strike zone you think that missed? Because I have it splitting both ways. It's not a catching contest!"

Then this weekend, I had a really good kid catching for Dartmouth. He was real chatty, but a good kid. In the 2nd he pulled down a belt high fast ball and I called it a strike. I told him, "Just catch it! That is a good height and I can work there." He didn't pull another pitch all day in any direction.

As was stated in a previous post, they don't throw enough strikes for us to ball the ones that the catcher screws up. If the dugout wants to get on ya, ackownledge, warn, eject.

Have a great season and good luck heading into conference play in both HS and College.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by mroyal

Maybe that's playing the word game. To me, framing is an attempt by a catcher to make a pitch look like or bring it to a location giving it the appearance of being a strike. Framing is a negative for me (whether you pull, push, pluck or yank).

A good catcher will frame a pitch by folding the glove and holding it for the umpire to get a good look. The only movement is the folding of the glove.

Any catch that is moved other than the above is framing the umpire.

[jkumpire]

Interesting thread, I appreciate very much the discussion.

As I take a lot of college games again after a long absence, I see that I have to make some adjustments to conform with modern practice. It has been a challenge, but one I enjoy. Even my summer college level ball did not prepare me for some changes I have needed to make. It is interesting, and help tp hear the discussion.

[briancurtin]

I don't think I've seen legit framing below the college level - be it movement of the arm or a hard flick of the wrist, whatever some dad is teaching at the time. College catchers have framing on the corners figured out, but low spots sometimes go unframed and caught downwards.

The frame job is done the instant the ball hits the glove. It's all in how the act of how the catch is made and is done after that (unless you are fooled by this type of thing). Holding it there for any length of time, to me, is a sign that the catcher himself doesn't think it's a strike.

[cc6]

I think whether you use the catcher or not to help call the game depends on the quality of the pitching. If a pitcher is throwing low 70's, you probably won't need to read the catcher's body language to determine if the pitch is a strike. But if it is mid 80's or higher, there is less time to watch the pitch as it crosses the plate. Also, movement comes into play- easier to call a straight fastball than one with a tail on it. I find it is especially important to use the catcher to help call pitches that are low or outside. If the catcher catches a low one with the palm up, it had better be obvious that the pitch was high enough. As for calling a pitch outside of the strikezone a strike because of how the catcher caught it, I'm not in the habit of doing this. Not the batter's job to know how the catcher is going to recieve the pitch.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by cc6

As for calling a pitch outside of the strikezone a strike because of how the catcher caught it, I'm not in the habit of doing this. Not the batter's job to know how the catcher is going to recieve the pitch.

A batter is crowding the plate. The ball is two widths outside. His "sweet spot" easily reaches 2 feet past that pitch. Everyone wants you to call it a strike, the OC the DC, and just about everyone on both teams and in the stands. They give you permission. The most famous coach in SEC history tells you before the season to call strikes. That or you can use that $3 strike zone cartoon and the black and white letter of the law. You pay $3000 to hear Mr. Evans' associates tell you it is your call to call that pitch the way you see it. "What ya gat?" Ball.

[Kevin Finnerty]

A strike is a strike. And if it's a strike, I call it a strike.

I find it hard to be entrusted with being an official and then go out and penalize one participant and reward his opponent, because I want to leave the contest sooner. I don't drink, I don't smoke and after 20 years of marriage, I'm in no great hurry to get home. So all I have going when I'm doing a game is the game. I guess the way I go about it requires me to stay a little longer sometimes, but I never have to wonder if I was being fair or not.

[cardinalfan]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

A strike is a strike. And if it's a strike, I call it a strike.

I find it hard to be entrusted with being an official and then go out and penalize one participant and reward his opponent, because I want to leave the contest sooner. I don't drink, I don't smoke and after 20 years of marriage, I'm in no great hurry to get home. So all I have going when I'm doing a game is the game. I guess the way I go about it requires me to stay a little longer sometimes, but I never have to wonder if I was being fair or not.

Nice!

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

A strike is a strike. And if it's a strike, I call it a strike..

NBA referee, "And if it's a foul, I call it a foul."
"And if it's a traveling violation, I call that too."
Explain that position to them.

As others have said, it depends on the league. Coaches never ask about strikes. Try to explain two inches outside to them. Keeping a batter alive after strike two and extending early innings are not good game management skill sets. It is the only reason an extended strike three exists. Most times it is better to let the pitchers duel it out. The catcher knows fairness is never a part of the equation. But do whatever feels best, good luck and good eyesight.