Batting Out of Order

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Oh, and there's yet another "manager's option" in FED that does not exist in OBR.

Would that be the illegal glove option?

[LittleLeagueBob]

Originally Posted by yawetag

Would that be the illegal glove option?

Yes - and there's still one more...anyone, anyone???

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by yawetag

Would that be the illegal glove option?

Define illegal glove.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by LittleLeagueBob

Yes - and there's still one more...anyone, anyone???

LLBob,

There certainly is...

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Define illegal glove.

I would go with the definition(s) found in FED 1-3-6 - though in the context of this discussion, the color constraints for a pitcher's glove are not relevant.

JM

[DG]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

aschramm,
CoachJM,
I agree that the offense has no "standing" in calling BOO. By rule, once the umpire realizes the infraction, he should enforce it. When I have had this situation, I have told the offensive coach, no you cannot .... This usually will key off the defense for the appeal. I, personally, would not enforce the BOO if the defense did not appeal.

The umpire should never draw attention to BOO. Let the defense do it, or not. I was on bases for a Legion game last summer when the first batter in an inning grounded out. The offensive coach came out, there was a discussion with PU and then he announced 2 outs. I called time to find out how we can have one batter and 2 outs. I explained to my partner that it was impossible to have one batter and two outs. Defensive coach came out and said he knew about the BOO but he will take the play, so we left it alone. Apparently, a good hitter was missed. And, defensive coach was ok with 2 outs also, since he did not question, or maybe he did not notice that 2 outs had been called. I expect he knew better.

[tip184]

Originally Posted by DG

The umpire should never draw attention to BOO. Let the defense do it, or not. I was on bases for a Legion game last summer when the first batter in an inning grounded out. The offensive coach came out, there was a discussion with PU and then he announced 2 outs. I called time to find out how we can have one batter and 2 outs. I explained to my partner that it was impossible to have one batter and two outs. Defensive coach came out and said he knew about the BOO but he will take the play, so we left it alone. Apparently, a good hitter was missed. And, defensive coach was ok with 2 outs also, since he did not question, or maybe he did not notice that 2 outs had been called. I expect he knew better.

So you had 1 out, your partner had 2 outs, and you decided to say in front of everybody that you disagreed with your partner having 2 outs? It sounds to me like you showed your partner up in front of everybody.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by tip184

So you had 1 out, your partner had 2 outs, and you decided to say in front of everybody that you disagreed with your partner having 2 outs? It sounds to me like you showed your partner up in front of everybody.

You're kidding, right? That's called getting the call right and helping to overturn a stupid call by his partner, not showing him up. The way I read this, DG called Time and conferenced privately with his partner to show him the error of his ways. I don't think he got a megaphone out and announced his partner's stupidity to the crowd. What would you have done, smart guy?

[tip184]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

You're kidding, right? That's called getting the call right and helping to overturn a stupid call by his partner, not showing him up. The way I read this, DG called Time and conferenced privately with his partner to show him the error of his ways. I don't think he got a megaphone out and announced his partner's stupidity to the crowd. What would you have done, smart guy?

I wouldn't have over-ruled my partner. If he felt a BOO called for two outs, I would live with that until he came to me and asked me. Then I would have told him that there is only one out in this situation. A partner cannot overrule another partner. Even if he conferences privately, everyone will still realize that he is trying to over-rule his partner.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tip184

I wouldn't have over-ruled my partner. If he felt a BOO called for two outs, I would live with that until he came to me and asked me. Then I would have told him that there is only one out in this situation. A partner cannot overrule another partner. Even if he conferences privately, everyone will still realize that he is trying to over-rule his partner.

It's a rules issue. I'd go to him and try to convince him of the correct rule.

I *think* that some versions of softball allow two outs on this play. Maybe that's why some of the partipants were confused.

[greymule]

I *think* that some versions of softball allow two outs on this play.

ASA, Fed, and NCAA all differ in how they deal with BOO.

Example:

B1 singles. B3 hits into a double play. Defense appeals that B2 should have batted.

ASA: Double play counts, B2 out for failing to bat in proper order. Three outs, B4 leads off next inning. (Two batters, three outs.)

Fed [unless they have changed their rule since 2002]: Runner (B1) out on the force at 2B. B2 out for failing to bat in the proper order. Two outs. B3 bats again.

NCAA follows OBR: B2 out, B1 returns to 1B, B3 bats again.

There are other differences: bases loaded, B5 bats instead of B4. Ball 4 to B5 is in the dirt and bounces off F2's shinguard and into DBT. Defense appeals that B4 should have batted. In ASA, B4 is out, runners return TOP, and B5 bats again. In NCAA, B4 is out, but the runners are still awarded a base on the ball entering DBT. B5 now bats. (I don't know how Fed would rule on that play.)

I doubt that many of you do YSISF, but they have their own unique rule set for BOO. Very severe penalties for violations.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by greymule

I *think* that some versions of softball allow two outs on this play.

ASA, Fed, and NCAA all differ in how they deal with BOO.

Example:

B1 singles. B3 hits into a double play. Defense appeals that B2 should have batted.

ASA: Double play counts, B2 out for failing to bat in proper order. Three outs, B4 leads off next inning. (Two batters, three outs.)

Fed [unless they have changed their rule since 2002]: Runner (B1) out on the force at 2B. B2 out for failing to bat in the proper order. Two outs. B3 bats again.

NCAA follows OBR: B2 out, B1 returns to 1B, B3 bats again.

There are other differences: bases loaded, B5 bats instead of B4. Ball 4 to B5 is in the dirt and bounces off F2's shinguard and into DBT. Defense appeals that B4 should have batted. In ASA, B4 is out, runners return TOP, and B5 bats again. In NCAA, B4 is out, but the runners are still awarded a base on the ball entering DBT. B5 now bats. (I don't know how Fed would rule on that play.)

I doubt that many of you do YSISF, but they have their own unique rule set for BOO. Very severe penalties for violations.

But where is the example that DG stated, where it was the first batter of the inning who grounded out that batted out of order? I can't imagine more than one out awarded in any code. Please someone give an example of when there can be two outs called for the wrong leadoff batter.

[greymule]

But where is the example that DG stated, where it was the first batter of the inning who grounded out that batted out of order? I can't imagine more than one out awarded in any code. Please someone give an example of when there can be two outs called for the wrong leadoff batter.

In the Legion play that DG mentioned, the ruling was incorrect. The coach, knowing the rule and aware of the BOO, knew that he should wait and see what happens and then decide whether or not to appeal. (Such a situation occurred in a Mets-Pirates game decades ago, where the Mets let the Pirates bat out of order twice, but appealed the third time around when the batter got a double.) In DG's play, we never learned which number batter failed to bat in the proper order, but the ruling should have been proper batter out, play doesn't count, next batter is the one who follows the one who failed to bat when he should have.

But the ruling would have been correct in ASA: B5 is supposed to lead off the inning, but B6 bats and makes an out. The defense appeals. The out by B6 stands, and B5 is also out. One batter, two outs, B7 now bats. (Note: In ASA, it is always to the defense's advantage to appeal BOO. There can never be any negative consequences, never a decision to be made about which option is better. Note also that if B7 had batted when B5 was supposed to, and B7 made an out, then B7's out would stand, B5 would be out, and B6 would then bat, followed by B7. So if B6 gets on base, B7 could go 0 for 2 in an inning that saw only 3 batters.)

This cannot happen in Fed or NCAA softball, nor can it happen in OBR. All three codes would call the above play the same: B5 out, B6's out doesn't count, B6 bats again. I'm not sure about Fed baseball. I thought it followed Fed softball, but I'm not sure and haven't done Fed baseball or softball since 2002.