Batting Out of Order

[UmpTTS43]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

UmpTTS43,

I would agree with your point that once the defense appeals a BOOT, they cannoy "unappeal" it. I believe the offense has no "standing" to appeal a BOOT and that the umpire does nothing, even should he realize a BOOT occurred, until the defense appeals.

Oh, and you've got 50% of the times the offended team has an "option" to take the penalty or the result of the play (under OBR rules).

JM

aschramm,
I see that you highlighted the FED part. You may be correct in saying that the defense can choose. I do not know.

CoachJM,
I agree that the offense has no "standing" in calling BOO. By rule, once the umpire realizes the infraction, he should enforce it. When I have had this situation, I have told the offensive coach, no you cannot .... This usually will key off the defense for the appeal. I, personally, would not enforce the BOO if the defense did not appeal.

What did I miss JM on the option thingy? Can't I always be right?

[aschramm]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

aschramm,
I see that you highlighted the FED part. You may be correct in saying that the defense can choose. I do not know.

CoachJM,
I agree that the offense has no "standing" in calling BOO. By rule, once the umpire realizes the infraction, he should enforce it. When I have had this situation, I have told the offensive coach, no you cannot .... This usually will key off the defense for the appeal. I, personally, would not enforce the BOO if the defense did not appeal.

What did I miss JM on the option thingy? Can't I always be right?

Yep, sorry if I didn't point that out. I'm just looking for FED rule references. Thanks!!

[UmpJM]

TTUmp,

The difference in FED is that even if the defense does properly appeal a BOOT, any outs made on the play stand and only advances due to the improper batter's completion of his at bat are nullified. Under OBR & NCAA, both outs and advances are nullified.

So, in FED, if an improper batter hits into a double play, the 2 outs stand, and any advances are "reset". Under OBR & NCAA, the 2 outs on the play would be "replaced" by the one out declared on the proper batter. In FED, you kinf of get to "have your cake and eat it too".

For the other OBR "manager's option", see the oft-overlooked 8.02(a) Penalty.

Oh, and there's yet another "manager's option" in FED that does not exist in OBR.

JM

[UmpTTS43]

Oooh yes, the ol' 8.02(a) penalty. And I get to use that one so often. If I ever had a coach take the option on that one, I'd kiss his cleats. Thanks for the reminder.

Enlighten me on FED, since I rarely have to go there.

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Oh, and there's yet another "manager's option" in FED that does not exist in OBR.

Would that be the illegal glove option?

[LittleLeagueBob]

Originally Posted by yawetag

Would that be the illegal glove option?

Yes - and there's still one more...anyone, anyone???

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by yawetag

Would that be the illegal glove option?

Define illegal glove.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by LittleLeagueBob

Yes - and there's still one more...anyone, anyone???

LLBob,

There certainly is...

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Define illegal glove.

I would go with the definition(s) found in FED 1-3-6 - though in the context of this discussion, the color constraints for a pitcher's glove are not relevant.

JM

[DG]

Originally Posted by UmpTTS43

aschramm,
CoachJM,
I agree that the offense has no "standing" in calling BOO. By rule, once the umpire realizes the infraction, he should enforce it. When I have had this situation, I have told the offensive coach, no you cannot .... This usually will key off the defense for the appeal. I, personally, would not enforce the BOO if the defense did not appeal.

The umpire should never draw attention to BOO. Let the defense do it, or not. I was on bases for a Legion game last summer when the first batter in an inning grounded out. The offensive coach came out, there was a discussion with PU and then he announced 2 outs. I called time to find out how we can have one batter and 2 outs. I explained to my partner that it was impossible to have one batter and two outs. Defensive coach came out and said he knew about the BOO but he will take the play, so we left it alone. Apparently, a good hitter was missed. And, defensive coach was ok with 2 outs also, since he did not question, or maybe he did not notice that 2 outs had been called. I expect he knew better.

[tip184]

Originally Posted by DG

The umpire should never draw attention to BOO. Let the defense do it, or not. I was on bases for a Legion game last summer when the first batter in an inning grounded out. The offensive coach came out, there was a discussion with PU and then he announced 2 outs. I called time to find out how we can have one batter and 2 outs. I explained to my partner that it was impossible to have one batter and two outs. Defensive coach came out and said he knew about the BOO but he will take the play, so we left it alone. Apparently, a good hitter was missed. And, defensive coach was ok with 2 outs also, since he did not question, or maybe he did not notice that 2 outs had been called. I expect he knew better.

So you had 1 out, your partner had 2 outs, and you decided to say in front of everybody that you disagreed with your partner having 2 outs? It sounds to me like you showed your partner up in front of everybody.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by tip184

So you had 1 out, your partner had 2 outs, and you decided to say in front of everybody that you disagreed with your partner having 2 outs? It sounds to me like you showed your partner up in front of everybody.

You're kidding, right? That's called getting the call right and helping to overturn a stupid call by his partner, not showing him up. The way I read this, DG called Time and conferenced privately with his partner to show him the error of his ways. I don't think he got a megaphone out and announced his partner's stupidity to the crowd. What would you have done, smart guy?

[tip184]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

You're kidding, right? That's called getting the call right and helping to overturn a stupid call by his partner, not showing him up. The way I read this, DG called Time and conferenced privately with his partner to show him the error of his ways. I don't think he got a megaphone out and announced his partner's stupidity to the crowd. What would you have done, smart guy?

I wouldn't have over-ruled my partner. If he felt a BOO called for two outs, I would live with that until he came to me and asked me. Then I would have told him that there is only one out in this situation. A partner cannot overrule another partner. Even if he conferences privately, everyone will still realize that he is trying to over-rule his partner.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by tip184

I wouldn't have over-ruled my partner. If he felt a BOO called for two outs, I would live with that until he came to me and asked me. Then I would have told him that there is only one out in this situation. A partner cannot overrule another partner. Even if he conferences privately, everyone will still realize that he is trying to over-rule his partner.

It's a rules issue. I'd go to him and try to convince him of the correct rule.

I *think* that some versions of softball allow two outs on this play. Maybe that's why some of the partipants were confused.

[greymule]

I *think* that some versions of softball allow two outs on this play.

ASA, Fed, and NCAA all differ in how they deal with BOO.

Example:

B1 singles. B3 hits into a double play. Defense appeals that B2 should have batted.

ASA: Double play counts, B2 out for failing to bat in proper order. Three outs, B4 leads off next inning. (Two batters, three outs.)

Fed [unless they have changed their rule since 2002]: Runner (B1) out on the force at 2B. B2 out for failing to bat in the proper order. Two outs. B3 bats again.

NCAA follows OBR: B2 out, B1 returns to 1B, B3 bats again.

There are other differences: bases loaded, B5 bats instead of B4. Ball 4 to B5 is in the dirt and bounces off F2's shinguard and into DBT. Defense appeals that B4 should have batted. In ASA, B4 is out, runners return TOP, and B5 bats again. In NCAA, B4 is out, but the runners are still awarded a base on the ball entering DBT. B5 now bats. (I don't know how Fed would rule on that play.)

I doubt that many of you do YSISF, but they have their own unique rule set for BOO. Very severe penalties for violations.