Malicious Contact Supercedes Obstruction right?

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mrm21711

Im saying under NFHS (and the NFHS rule pretty much seems to apply to the above situation) the run wouldnt score because at the moment the MC occurs the ball is dead and the runner is automatically out. Right?

The runner is not out because the AWARD of home occurred before the MC. Even though the ball is dead on the MC, the ejected runner is permitted to complete the base award.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

The runner is not out because the AWARD of home occurred before the MC. Even though the ball is dead on the MC, the ejected runner is permitted to complete the base award.

No. Assuming you are referring to NFHS, the following caseplay shows that runner is out, and the run does not score.

"3.3.1 SITUATION S: With two outs and the bases loaded, B6 hits a home run out of the park. R3 maliciously runs over (a) F4 before touching second base or (b) F5 before touching third. RULING: In both (a) and (b), R3 is declared out and ejected. In (a), the third out is a force, so no runs score. In (b), the third out was not a force play, so runners who have touched the plate prior to the infraction would score. Please note that in awarded situations it is not the base that is awarded, but rather the right to advance and legally touch a base with no play being made."

Note that in screwy FED notation R3 means the runner who was on first base.

R3 (usually termed R1) is awarded home by the home run, but he is not allowed to complete the award, because he is declared out for malicious contact.

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

No. Assuming you are referring to NFHS, the following caseplay shows that runner is out, and the run does not score.

"3.3.1 SITUATION S: With two outs and the bases loaded, B6 hits a home run out of the park. R3 maliciously runs over (a) F4 before touching second base or (b) F5 before touching third. RULING: In both (a) and (b), R3 is declared out and ejected. In (a), the third out is a force, so no runs score. In (b), the third out was not a force play, so runners who have touched the plate prior to the infraction would score. Please note that in awarded situations it is not the base that is awarded, but rather the right to advance and legally touch a base with no play being made."

Note that in screwy FED notation R3 means the runner who was on first base.

R3 (usually termed R1) is awarded home by the home run, but he is not allowed to complete the award, because he is declared out for malicious contact.

FYI - I was referring to NFHS rules.

[Kevin Finnerty]

We had a play that was a lot like this, and the PU ruled that the run counted, but the runner was out/ejected. My take at the time was that the MC superceded the OB and the run shouldn't count. It also seems like it's only fair that way anyway. But he ruled that the run counted.

[dash_riprock]

After reading the rule (which I should have done in the first place), I agree with Dave. The run only counts if it was SCORED (not awarded) before the MC. To answer my own question above, I would call the batter out and toss him. He loses the award.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

No. Assuming you are referring to NFHS, the following caseplay shows that runner is out, and the run does not score.

"3.3.1 SITUATION S: With two outs and the bases loaded, B6 hits a home run out of the park. R3 maliciously runs over (a) F4 before touching second base or (b) F5 before touching third. RULING: In both (a) and (b), R3 is declared out and ejected. In (a), the third out is a force, so no runs score. In (b), the third out was not a force play, so runners who have touched the plate prior to the infraction would score. Please note that in awarded situations it is not the base that is awarded, but rather the right to advance and legally touch a base with no play being made."

Note that in screwy FED notation R3 means the runner who was on first base.

R3 (usually termed R1) is awarded home by the home run, but he is not allowed to complete the award, because he is declared out for malicious contact.

Point well taken. Now consider this one: The batter is hit by a pitch and is awarded 1st base. However, instead of going to 1st, he charges the mound and maliciously contacts F1. He is ejected, but is he declared out as well, thereby nullifying the award, or is a substitute runner placed on 1st base?

[mrm21711]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Point well taken. Now consider this one: The batter is hit by a pitch and is awarded 1st base. However, instead of going to 1st, he charges the mound and maliciously contacts F1. He is ejected, but is he declared out as well, thereby nullifying the award, or is a substitute runner placed on 1st base?

What? More misinformation you are contributing to the forum.

The runner would be ejected for fighting, but thats not really "malicious contact." Plus the ball is dead on the award - the runner is not out. A substitute would simply come in for the ejected batter/runner.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mrm21711

What? More misinformation you are contributing to the forum.

The runner would be ejected for fighting, but thats not really "malicious contact." Plus the ball is dead on the award - the runner is not out. A substitute would simply come in for the ejected batter/runner.

I don't think so. The ball is dead on the home run in 3.3.1. S as well. If it's MC on offense, the player is out (unless he has scored) and ejected. See 3-3-1-n Penalty.

[Dave Reed]

This is a grey area. FED rules don't define malicious contact, and surprisingly there is no explicit rule against fighting! (There is however a rule against a player leaving the bench or on-deck circle to go to a fight, even if they don't participate.)

So generally we consider fighting to be in the classification of unsportsmanlike conduct, and the penalty is ejection only.

When a batter charges the mound, that is in itself likely USC, since the rules explcitly mention charging an umpire as USC. It seems to me that if the pitcher responds by running toward the batter, that's also USC. And if they start whacking each other, that's fighting.

But if the batter charges the pitcher, generating only a defensive response, and hits the pitcher, that's malicious contact. It's not a fight unless there is an offensive response.

USC-- ejection only. MC--out and ejected. The choice depends on the umpire's judgement of the activities.