The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Baseball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 23, 2008, 04:16pm
rei
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Arrogance is tricky.

I got an informal comment from two PAC-10 evaluators that was simply "You sometimes appear arrogant". I asked for specific examples, and neither could give any!

I talked to a PAC-10 non-conference umpire about this who worked with me on the same game, and he simply had NOTHING for me concerning that, and he is a guy who has busted my balls about persona and presence on the field for a few years now. If I would have been arrogant in ANY way, he would have let me know right away! But he had nothing.

I agree that it depends who it is coming from. I don't agree that it could be considered a compliment to be called arrogant by fans/players/coaches. If anything, these are the very people I don't want to appear arrogant to! There are guys around this area that fans/players/coaches think that about, and these umps always seem to be in the middle of controversy. They are NOT moving up either! So, while most of their peers don't see them that way, they are perceived that way by everybody else!

I have nothing for you. If I seen some video of you working, maybe I could see some stuff.

I would say this. Be careful about being pretentious when making calls. Sell the call as well as it "needs" to be sold. Over-selling calls is a quick way to be considered "above the game". I have seen guys who slightly over-sell everything, and it they DO come across as pretentious.

Quick motion can also be perceived badly. Like you are a little too highly charged. Guys out of the pro-schools suffer from this more than anybody else I see. Their movements appear to be a bit aggressive for the situation. It is little stuff like coming up with a quick and loud "FOUL!!!" when it is obviously a foul ball. Possibly empathizing ball calls too much. "Selling" ball and strike calls (this is old school, but seems to be a thing of the past now...thank god!).

So many little things that it could be, so little video of you working for me to see if I agree!

Tim, wouldn't just about ANY umpire be a welcome addition to the PBUA?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 23, 2008, 04:43pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Quote:
Originally Posted by rei View Post
Possibly empathizing ball calls too much.
Wow, talk about a real sensitive umpire.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 23, 2008, 05:04pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 85
[QUOTE=Tim C;538865]As I have stated many times before the simple number of ejections an umpire has little to no bearing on his game management or ability.

If you had asked: "On your ejections during the last two season have any been deemed 'unnecessary' by your assigner or executive board?"

There are far more problem with umpires that fail to eject than umpires that do eject.

Tuss's major problem may lie in the fact that he is considered 'very' young to work at the level he has attained. It matters not if he is average, good or great it is the perception that young umpires are cocky.

I guess I'm too quick to the point...good elaboration Tim, especially on the ones who fail to eject (preventative umpiring for the rest of us).




Pssst..TUss...How many was there?
__________________
"These go to 11"
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 23, 2008, 05:33pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,219
Send a message via AIM to TussAgee11
Thanks ya'll for the replies. The "complaint" was an informal one that I heard about from a mutual friend of both game participants and myself. I didn't want to simply let it roll of the shoulders without evaluating its legitamacy.

JM made the most intriguing point, I said I didn't care about what these people thought, but I did make this post. So clearly, I care. Well done JM

I have gotten a comment from an evaluator on the basketball side of things that I look too cocky with the whistle in my mouth - something about my facial expression. Maybe that is coming into play on the baseball side.

I was just looking for some other issues that could need self addressing or something to say to a pard' in the pregame to watch out for. Thanks for the candid and valid comments - I'll do some self monitoring on those issues to see if I can come up with a better answer in a couple of weeks throughout this fall ball season.

And in about 55-60 games between the summer and spring, I got rid of 2. Looking back on it, I wish it was 3; missed one. Season before, 70 games about, same leagues, same people, it was maybe 3 or 4.

This spring I'll be "moving up" in my association in CT to "Senior City", which is mainly JUCO kids home for the summer or former college players that didn't get drafted or signed. Guess I'll have to reestablish credibility once more...
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 23, 2008, 05:33pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Washington
Posts: 1,491
Send a message via AIM to RPatrino Send a message via Yahoo to RPatrino
Tuss, I suspect that you are having to endure this criticism simply because of your age. I have seen this a lot during my work with LL umpires, as they move up the ranks. Some adults don't like to be told what to do by young adults, plain and simple. I had a young umpire, probably 13 or so when I worked with him, who was one of the brightest kids I have ever met. I received complaints because he didn't show the proper "respect" for the adult coach's and manager's in the league. Upon further investigation into this allegation, I found out that one of the coach's had attempted to draw this young lad into a debate about the application of a particular rule, and the coach was soundly thrashed and his ignorance of the rule book was plain for all to see or hear. I told the board that the umpire wasn't arrogant, he was correct.
__________________
Bob P.

-----------------------
We are stewards of baseball. Our customers aren't schools or coaches or conferences. Our customer is the game itself.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 23, 2008, 08:18pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 543
Only 55-60 games so far this season, and only 70 games last year? When does your season start and end? I wouldn't worry about re-establishing credibility. Haters are spectators.

Now, I know I was told on here that age doesn't have anything to do with how one is regarded on the field, but I think we all know that age really does have an impact on how you are percieved.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 23, 2008, 08:47pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,057
Send a message via Yahoo to UmpJM
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6 View Post
...
Now, I know I was told on here that age doesn't have anything to do with how one is regarded on the field, but I think we all know that age really does have an impact on how you are percieved.
canadaump6,

There are some things in life that one can change or influence by one's efforts and actions and others that one cannot. One's age falls in the latter category.

When a person attributes his lack of personal success, or even degree of satisfaction with "the way things are", to things he cannot change, he reduces his odds of achieving the personal success he desires and, likewise, of improving the way things are.

I believe you and Tuss are practically the same age. I have seen him make substantive contributions to discussions of "difficult" rules discussions on a number of occasions, I have seen him ask questions that indicate a solid understanding of officiating and a genuine desire to improve, and I don't believe I've ever seem him bring up his age as an excuse for any real OR perceived deficiency he might have as an umpire.

Unlike you.

I would concur with your assertion that age has an affect on how one is perceived as an official. I'm "old". I just do my best to deal with it. You're "young". Deal with it. Quit whining about it.

JM
__________________
Finally, be courteous, impartial and firm, and so compel respect from all.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 23, 2008, 09:05pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NY state
Posts: 1,504
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6 View Post
but I think we all know that age really does have an impact on how you are percieved.
Youth, in and of itself, is not a factor. Youth combined with other attibutes, is a factor.

I have seen very youthful, professionally trained umpires, who carried themselves with confidence, work very difficult games and get no grief from anyone.

I have seen very youthful, very good umpires, who appeared, through body language, facial expression, tone of voice or attitude, cocky, work very difficult games and get hammered by coaches, fans, players, and later, off the field, their partners.

I will add that I have seen the same difference among older umpires.

Blaming perceived slights on one's youthfulness is a smokescreen often used primarily to cover up deficiencies in game management and people skills.

Last edited by MrUmpire; Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 09:34pm.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 23, 2008, 09:34pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
Being young magnifies, I think, the affects of looking arrogant or aloof. When you're older, people assume you've earned that right (sometimes), giving the same look or appearance when you're younger can rub folks the wrong way. It may be a challenge, but it's something that can be overcome.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 23, 2008, 09:55pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Randolph, NJ
Posts: 1,936
Send a message via Yahoo to waltjp
When I think of officials who I think are cocky or arrogant the common attribute is usually body language. Have someone video tape one of your games and then take a good, objective look at it.
__________________
I got a fever! And the only prescription.. is more cowbell!
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 23, 2008, 10:54pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 543


Quote:
Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM) View Post
canadaump6,

There are some things in life that one can change or influence by one's efforts and actions and others that one cannot. One's age falls in the latter category.

When a person attributes his lack of personal success, or even degree of satisfaction with "the way things are", to things he cannot change, he reduces his odds of achieving the personal success he desires and, likewise, of improving the way things are.

I believe you and Tuss are practically the same age. I have seen him make substantive contributions to discussions of "difficult" rules discussions on a number of occasions, I have seen him ask questions that indicate a solid understanding of officiating and a genuine desire to improve, and I don't believe I've ever seem him bring up his age as an excuse for any real OR perceived deficiency he might have as an umpire.

Unlike you.

I would concur with your assertion that age has an affect on how one is perceived as an official. I'm "old". I just do my best to deal with it. You're "young". Deal with it. Quit whining about it.

JM
Hey dude,

Try to be a bit more judgmental of me next time.

I didn't bring up age as an excuse in this thread, so quit accusing me of whining. While you're at it, stop shooting me down all the time, and if you agree with something I say please refrain from saying "this is one of the few good canadaump posts on here". While you're at it, trash your little list of debatable things I've said in my time here, because from umpiring video I can tell you are far from perfect yourself.

You are accusing me of not contributing to rule discussions, which I do on a regular basis and did a just a few days ago on the "err" play. I've asked questions and posted videos, so don't accuse me of not trying to improve.

___________________

Finally, be courteous, impartial and firm, and so compel respect from all.

Last edited by canadaump6; Tue Sep 23, 2008 at 10:56pm.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 24, 2008, 06:39am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South Bend, In.
Posts: 2,192
Send a message via AIM to BigUmp56 Send a message via Yahoo to BigUmp56
Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaump6 View Post




Hey dude,

Try to be a bit more judgmental of me next time.

I didn't bring up age as an excuse in this thread, so quit accusing me of whining. While you're at it, stop shooting me down all the time, and if you agree with something I say please refrain from saying "this is one of the few good canadaump posts on here". While you're at it, trash your little list of debatable things I've said in my time here, because from umpiring video I can tell you are far from perfect yourself.

You are accusing me of not contributing to rule discussions, which I do on a regular basis and did a just a few days ago on the "err" play. I've asked questions and posted videos, so don't accuse me of not trying to improve.

___________________

Finally, be courteous, impartial and firm, and so compel respect from all.
Once again you're missing the point and are completely dismissing an attempt to help you get over this hump you're stuck on. John was genuinly trying to help you, not accusing you of anything, but rather giving a constructive criticism of your demeanor. He's right, you really need to get over what you perceive as age discrimination.


Tim.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 24, 2008, 01:44am
rei
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Wow, talk about a real sensitive umpire.
I meant to say making the call too emphatic.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ABC's "Nightline" examines "worst calls ever" tonight pizanno Basketball 27 Fri Jul 04, 2008 06:08am
Fight during "good game" postgame handshake johnnyg08 Baseball 8 Sun Jun 08, 2008 08:49pm
Can "FOUL" be made "FAIR"? PAT THE REF Baseball 60 Sat Feb 24, 2007 09:01pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:22pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1