Both arms dangling

[Porch Dog]

Gentleman: Is it a balk for a pitcher (from the windup position) to dangle BOTH arms at his side, bring them up simultaneously, pause and then continue with his delivery? I primarily do FED ball but I'm curious how this is approached under all rules. Thanks! Porch Dog

[Bfair]

In OBR, it is legal to move both arms up and reset in front of the body in the windup. In my games, I'll balk any pitcher stepping back with his pivot foot while those arms are in motion upward and before resetting. He technically has started his windup until taking advantage of the allowable "reset". After being reset, I'll then allow him to properly disengage if he cares to before any further arm motion.

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It's technically illegal in Fed since both arms are moving up in front of his body at the same time. He has technically started his windup and must continue or else it would be an illegal pitch (ball) with no runners on base, and a balk with runners on base.

I've seen it often, never called it, never seen it called in my game, and never seen it called in anyone else's game. Maybe it's different in a different part of the country, but around here it would likely be considered booger pickin' and a sure ticket downward.

It appears this "FED" interpretation of the windup is treated is no differently than some other minor changes they've made from OBR. I've yet to see anyone declare a ball on a batter for a pitcher starting but abandoning an effort to start a pitch when no runners are on base---or for dropping a ball with no runners on base.

IMO, the Fed needs to review some of their more nitpicky interpretations to bring them back to reality of what is really being called in the field.

I have little reason to believe this area of the country is any different than other areas of the country.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[Porch Dog]

Bfair... I don't know if I'll receive any additional answers but I believe you"ve given me a great one. You've not only answered my original questions but several more that were in the back of my mind. Knowing the rules is one thing but knowing when, where and how to fairly apply them seems to me to be the essence of umpiring. I do understand, however, that great minds can disagree. Thanks! Porch Dog

[Bfair]

I'm not directing you NOT to use the proper Fed rules....
I'm just sayin.....I don't see it done.....anywhere....
Regarding this issue, that is........


Freix

[brandda]

So you are interpreting the windup to be a motion to the plate? Just curious as I have also never seen this called.

[jicecone]

Bfair, Are you saying that it is a technical balk because the pitcher is bringing both arms up at the same time rather than separately as read in Sit:6.1.2.H Pg 38 of Fed casebook. They talk about first moving the glove and then the pitching hand.

I areee what your saying, I just want a further clarification.

[Porch Dog]

What prompted my question was experiences I had as a third base coach. Most pitchers who started with both hands down at their side would just swing their arms up as a start to the pitch as they stepped back with their non-pivot foot or shortly before their step back. Most would continue the motion up while getting their grip and deliver the ball. My question was if they paused to get their grip, thus stopping their motion, is this a balk? If you have your players getting a secondary lead or perhaps a suicide squeeze it could create a problem if you had them do these on first motion. Thanks! Porch Dog

[Bfair]

From the windup:

Umpires shouldn't pick boogers about minor movements coming prepared as the pitcher engages the rubber. That's booger pickin'. You've got to give him a chance to establish his position.

Once established on the rubber, anytime he moves his free (nonpivot) foot before being legally disengaged, he must pitch.

He may legally disengage before pitching by stepping backward off the rubber with his pivot foot. That may be done:

• while both hands are at his side
  
• while both hands are set, in front of his body
  
• while either arm only is moving upward to set in front of his body, but he must move the arms separately and set each arm separately.

Anytime he moves two arms simultaneously, he must pitch.

***NOTE: Anytime he legally disengages and I see movement of both arms simultaneously in any simulated pitching motion, I will balk him. Some attempt to move the pivot foot back, and then raise both arms as if they are pitching in hopes the runner will think they are starting their windup. They think it's legal since they are off the rubber, but they don't know it's illegal due to simulating motion associated with the pitch while off the rubber. It is illegal and highly deceptive.

---

Now, that's the technically proper way he is allowed to move.

However, I've never seen anyone penalize a pitcher for moving both arms at the same time when no runners are on base. No different than I've never seen them penalized for not finishing a delivery or for dropping a ball while on the rubber if there are no runners on base. There is truly no advantage gain.

With runners on base, I seldom see pitchers throw from the windup when runners could steal any base without requiring the furthest runner to steal home.

Even with runners on 3B, I've seen pitchers move both arms simultaneously and reset in front of their bodies. I've never seen a situation where R3 made a legitimate steal attempt during that movement, and thus have never seen it balked. In fact, I can truthfully say I've never had an offensive coach complain when it's occurred and F1 has not been balked.

However, if that ever occurred and the runner broke and the pitcher did not deliver to the plate, I'd balk him. If an offensive coach ever complained about not balking it, I'd be certain F2 got the word to him to stop it. Never had to do that either----yet.

I'm not alone. As I said, I've seen it often yet never seen a balk called for this.

So, if you're a coach..........
Do you want to chance that the umpire will properly balk the pitcher when he's supposed to? Risky move unless you know your umpire and have confidence in him.

In reality, maybe it's called in your neck of the woods, but I've not seen it called in mine. The Fed might consider reviewing what is and what is not being called in regards to their technical interpretations and establish something that correlates more with what actually occurs on the field.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by jicecone
Bfair, Are you saying that it is a technical balk because the pitcher is bringing both arms up at the same time rather than separately as read in Sit:6.1.2.H Pg 38 of Fed casebook. They talk about first moving the glove and then the pitching hand.

I areee what your saying, I just want a further clarification.

Yes -- that's the distinction. In FED, a pitcher may assuem the wind up with:

1) Hands together. Any movement other than stepping off commits the pitcher to pitch.

2) One hand in front, one at side. Pitcher may bring other hand to front and stop -- that puts us in position 1 (follow those rules), or may bring other hand to front and continue to pitch.

3) Both hands at side. Pitcher may bring one hand to front and stop -- that puts us in position 2 (follow those rules, including going to position 1, if applicable) or may move both hands to front and continue to pitch. The pitcher may not (by rule -- I agree with Bfair that it's not often called) bring both hands at once to the front and stop.

The way we have been instructed in FED to handle the two hands coming up and stopping is it's OK as long as he pitches. If he tries to ddis-engage after moving both hands then it's a balk. If the runner moves on first motion, all the pitcher can do is pitch. Anything else will be a balk.

[Bfair]

Originally posted by Michael Taylor
The way we have been instructed in FED to handle the two hands coming up and stopping is it's OK as long as he pitches. If he tries to ddis-engage after moving both hands then it's a balk. If the runner moves on first motion, all the pitcher can do is pitch. Anything else will be a balk.

Michael, while I'd agree that's a realistic and effective way of handling it, I'd point out it's still NOT per the Fed rule. I'd also question why, after resetting, he couldn't disengage if no runners were attempting advance. Is there any advantage gained? I'd think not. If they're not advancing, they certainly didn't think he started his delivery when both arms moved simultaneously.

It still goes to show, however, that it's likely widespread that it's NOT being enforced as the Fed prescribes, and probably won't be. When those who lead your organizations and are the Big Dogs won't call it, then who expects the Little Dogs to call it? When the Little Dogs do call it, they then get the wrap of being overly officious and unable to adjust to the level of the game.......


Just my opinion,

Freix

I was a little confused with why if he moves both hands up, stops then disengages why this was a balk. But the reason as explained to me is if the runner breaks when he moves both hands, as he should, but the pitcher stops. If he tries to get off the rubber to make the play then he's gained a tremendous advantage.
So if he moves both hands he has forfeited the right to disengage. You are correct that isn't exactly the way the Fed rule is but it seems to work.

[soonerfan]

Originally posted by Bfair
In OBR, it is legal to move both arms up and reset in front of the body in the windup. In my games, I'll balk any pitcher stepping back with his pivot foot while those arms are in motion upward and before resetting. He technically has started his windup until taking advantage of the allowable "reset". After being reset, I'll then allow him to properly disengage if he cares to before any further arm motion.

---

It's technically illegal in Fed since both arms are moving up in front of his body at the same time. He has technically started his windup and must continue or else it would be an illegal pitch (ball) with no runners on base, and a balk with runners on base.

I've seen it often, never called it, never seen it called in my game, and never seen it called in anyone else's game. Maybe it's different in a different part of the country, but around here it would likely be considered booger pickin' and a sure ticket downward.

It appears this "FED" interpretation of the windup is treated is no differently than some other minor changes they've made from OBR. I've yet to see anyone declare a ball on a batter for a pitcher starting but abandoning an effort to start a pitch when no runners are on base---or for dropping a ball with no runners on base.

Just a quick note, it has been told to me that if a ball were to be dropped with no one on base, it must cross the plate or a fould line to be considered a pitched ball. If not...just oops and quick laugh. My source was an umpire camp here in OK that featured a number of BIG XII and professional umpires, plus the BIG XII and Missouri Valley Supervisor of Umpires.

IMO, the Fed needs to review some of their more nitpicky interpretations to bring them back to reality of what is really being called in the field.

I have little reason to believe this area of the country is any different than other areas of the country.


Just my opinion,

Freix

[soonerfan]

Originally posted by Porch Dog
Gentleman: Is it a balk for a pitcher (from the windup position) to dangle BOTH arms at his side, bring them up simultaneously, pause and then continue with his delivery? I primarily do FED ball but I'm curious how this is approached under all rules. Thanks! Porch Dog

This is another rule that you cannot bare down on verbatim, you must look at it as a guide. Look at it this way. Pitchers do not know what they are throwing until the catcher tells them what to. Even if they set the ball to throw a cirtain pitch in their glove and they are asked to throw that pitch, they still have to grip it, right? I think as long as you give ample time for them to grip their pitch and it is not a distracting pause, you are cool. Broad rule, broad interpretation. JOHN