Accidental appeal after IW fourth out?

greymule · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 20, 2002, 05:18pm

In 1964, I attended a game in which the Orioles, in one inning, got 4 singles and 1 triple off Yankee pitching but scored only 1 run. An old baseball book of mine gave an example of an inning in which a team could get 2 triples, 1 double, and 3 singles and still not score. However . . .

How about 3 singles, 1 triple, and 6 walksÂ—Â—AND NOBODY LEFT ONÂ—Â—but no runs?

In Fed, missed bases on force plays can result in accidental live-ball appeals. Intentional walks do not end the right to appeal, nor do intervening plays. Umpires must recognize that a fourth out can nullify a run. Therefore, in the spirit of reductio ad absurdum:

PLAY: After they hit singles, R1 is on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B, with 0 out. B4 triples, driving in R1, R2, and R3, but R2 misses 3B. Coach orders B5 and B6 intentionally walked. F1 picks off B5 at 2B and B6 at 1B. Coach orders B7 and B8 intentionally walked. F1 tries to pick off B8 at 1B but throws ball away. B4 and B7 score, B8 goes to 3B. Coach orders B9 and B10 (originally R1) walked intentionally. F1 tries to pick off B9 at 2B but ball gets away. B8 and B9 score, B10 is trapped in a rundown between 3B and 2B and is tagged out by F5, who then falls backward and sits on 3B. RULING: Umpire rules R2 out on accidental appeal (fourth out) and the runs of R1, R2, R3, B4, B7, B8, and B9 do not count.

It could happen.

I guess B4 would lose his triple, though.

w_sohl · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 20, 2002, 11:44pm

Wouldn't R1's run count since he could have scored before R2 missed third base? So then only one run would count?

bob jenkins · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 20, 2002, 11:57pm

Quote:

Originally posted by w_sohl
Wouldn't R1's run count since he could have scored before R2 missed third base? So then only one run would count?

R2's out was a force out.

(BTW, greymule -- the standard on these board is to use the runner number as the base they are starting the play at -- e.g. r3 at third, r2 at second, 1 at first. We don't usually use the FED notation. Most even change it when they are quoting FED plays.)

Rich Coyle · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 21, 2002, 07:46am

IF this ever happened and IF you are the umpire at the game, I DARE YOU to make that call. You would need to join the Federal Witness Protection Program and I can assure you that the Fed's would ban you from further officiating positions.

w_sohl · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 21, 2002, 10:08am

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Coyle
IF this ever happened and IF you are the umpire at the game, I DARE YOU to make that call. You would need to join the Federal Witness Protection Program and I can assure you that the Fed's would ban you from further officiating positions.

Why do you dare us to make that call. If it is the right call it should be made every time that it happens. Your comment makes it sound as if you might be a coach.

greymule · #6 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 21, 2002, 12:30pm

If I'm going to be in the witness protection program, I'll have to be careful to distinguish between the Feds and the Fed.

Monday night the NJ interpreter reminded everyone that it is not our prerogative to ignore rules we don't like. However, as regards mechanics on an accidental appeal if a batter hits a bases-loaded triple with 2 out, misses first, slides into 3B safe and is then casually tagged by F5:

1. BU follows the batter to 3B and calls safe.
2. PU calls batter out on accidental appeal and disallows the 3 runs.
3. BU and PU race to getaway car and attempt to beat the mob out of town.

Rich Coyle · #7 (**permalink**) Thu Mar 21, 2002, 10:04pm

First, I'm not a coach. I am an umpire but my credentials are not important.

Honestly, that call would take brass ones (although you wouldn't have them for long after the call).

I absolutely agree that we should enforce all of the rules, like them or not. However, if I'm going to call this one, R2 had better have missed third base by a lot --- if I'm the only one who saw it, I'm not giving the accidental appeal. Frankly, the action of falling onto the base is probably not understood to be an accidental appeal by 99% of the people involved in the game.

So, in the words of many before me, "Don't go looking for boogers."

Carl Childress · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Mar 22, 2002, 09:16am

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
In 1964, I attended a game in which the Orioles, in one inning, got 4 singles and 1 triple off Yankee pitching but scored only 1 run. An old baseball book of mine gave an example of an inning in which a team could get 2 triples, 1 double, and 3 singles and still not score. However . . .

How about 3 singles, 1 triple, and 6 walksÂ—Â—AND NOBODY LEFT ONÂ—Â—but no runs?

In Fed, missed bases on force plays can result in accidental live-ball appeals. Intentional walks do not end the right to appeal, nor do intervening plays. Umpires must recognize that a fourth out can nullify a run. Therefore, in the spirit of reductio ad absurdum:

PLAY: After they hit singles, R1 is on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B, with 0 out. B4 triples, driving in R1, R2, and R3, but R2 misses 3B. Coach orders B5 and B6 intentionally walked. F1 picks off B5 at 2B and B6 at 1B. Coach orders B7 and B8 intentionally walked. F1 tries to pick off B8 at 1B but throws ball away. B4 and B7 score, B8 goes to 3B. Coach orders B9 and B10 (originally R1) walked intentionally. F1 tries to pick off B9 at 2B but ball gets away. B8 and B9 score, B10 is trapped in a rundown between 3B and 2B and is tagged out by F5, who then falls backward and sits on 3B. RULING: Umpire rules R2 out on accidental appeal (fourth out) and the runs of R1, R2, R3, B4, B7, B8, and B9 do not count.

It could happen.

I guess B4 would lose his triple, though.

And this "play" proves....

ref5678 · #9 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 24, 2002, 10:54am

just pray that it doesnt happen

chris s · #10 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 24, 2002, 11:36am

Mr. Mule, You got too much time on your hands!!!

#11 (**permalink**) Sun Mar 24, 2002, 02:00pm

In the middle of all this mess, didn't the accidental appeal go away this year?

Roger Greene · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 25, 2002, 11:16am

Quote:

Originally posted by Michael Taylor
In the middle of all this mess, didn't the accidental appeal go away this year?

No. (unfortunately) See 2-29-3

Roger Greene

#13 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 25, 2002, 05:39pm

2-29-3 is a force play at second. He crossed second then crossed back because he thought it might be caught. It wasn't and then it's a straight force out at second.

Roger Greene · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 25, 2002, 10:46pm

It would also apply if a runner misses a base he if forced to and advances to the next base, or if the batter runner misses first. Read it again and go to the NHFS baseball rules interpertations. See situations 18, 19 and 20 (I think).

There are also extensive discussions of the accidential appeal in earlier threads.

Roger Greene

#15 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 26, 2002, 02:52pm

OK I believe I am semi wrong. I think it was stated that it was still there for a missed force out but not any other appeal. I will investigate and if I find out differently I'll post back. Thanks for reminding me.