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Thu Apr 25, 2002, 10:16am
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I disagree with "accidental" appeals
Going back to greymule's original scenario, I would have to disagree with his "theory" of an "accidental" appeal. In 8-2 Penalty it is clearly stated that on a fourth-out appeal, "an appeal may be made after the third out as long as it is made properly and the resulting appeal is an apparent fourth out". There is no doubt the the "resulting appeal" in this situation is an apparent fourth out, so we now must prove that the appeal was "made properly". Although the play described is a force play as described in 2-29-3, I am going to cite 8.2.3 SITUATION in the Fed 2002 Case Book. This case is a similar situation at first where the batter-runner misses first base, but the fielder "casually steps on first base, though he believes the runner has beaten the throw". According to the new appeal process, this is not a proper appeal as the fielder was not making it clear to the umpire that an appeal was being made. However, the ruling is that the batter-runner is out "because a force play is being made ... and is the result of continuing action". The key words there are "continuing action". In greymule's example, the force play WAS NOT part of the continuing action, therefore a proper appeal must be made, i.e. the fielder must make it clear to the umpire he is making an appeal, not just plop his butt on the bag while in possession of the ball. If I were the umpire in this situation, I would not grant that appeal unless a coach or player verbally stated that they wanted to appeal that missed base. Then and only then would I grant the appeal and nullify all the runs scored.
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Thu Apr 25, 2002, 12:26pm
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Yes, continuing action is mentioned, though never defined. But we also have authoritative opinion that the accidental force is still in effect even after intentional walks (where no pitch is thrown). Certainly, if the ball goes back to the mound and then the coach orders a batter or batters intentionally walked, we don't think of that as continuing action, yet the accidental force still looms as possible. We also have case play involving a fielder nonchalantly tagging a runner who has slid safely into 3B after missing 2B, and a fielder who is walking in from the outfield toward the mound, presumably after play has stopped, and who kicks dirt off 2B to trigger the accidental force play.
It would be nice to know exactly at what point the accidental force is not possible. Analogies to appeals are not really valid, because although we've been calling this play an accidental appeal, it's really an accidental force play (that happens to look like an appeal). Maybe next year the entire point will be moot (or they'll define continuing action precisely!).
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greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide!
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Thu Apr 25, 2002, 01:59pm
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Any of that certainly would be nice, but just for argument's sake, if the appeal is not made right away (i.e., after intentional walks, pick-off plays, etc.), I'm not going to grant it unless the defense makes it absolutely clear that they are making an appeal. Thanks for your input!
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Thu Apr 25, 2002, 02:28pm
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Quote:
Can you direct us where to look? Freix
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Thu Apr 25, 2002, 05:18pm
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Freix: I'll look, but for now all I remember is that it was in one of the posts positing outrageous calls an umpire would have to make regarding accidental force plays. Somebody asked about whether intentional walks nullified future accidental force plays, and somebody else got an unequivocal "no" from a Fed official. Or maybe it was appeals, and we extended it to force plays. I'll try to find it, but I can't spend time on that at the moment. Must have been a few days before the time this thread started.
I hope that before this rule is sent to oblivion, I get to call it just once, preferably in one of its most preposterous incarnations. Of course, I hope the score is 13 to 4 in the 7th, and the call goes against the team in the lead (and they're the visitors). [Edited by greymule on Apr 25th, 2002 at 05:31 PM]
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greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide!
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Thu Apr 25, 2002, 07:57pm
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OK. It's a citation of Kyle McNeely under "Fed appeal situation" that began with JJ on March 17. It is indeed about appeals, not accidental forces, but apparently a lot of people figure the accidental force should be treated like an appeal. That's what we don't really know.
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greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide!
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Fri Apr 26, 2002, 07:05am
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According to everything I've gotten from higher ups in Fed, they say the accidental on forces only. Any appeal has to be done correctly. I finally got my first deadball apppeal the other day. This rule change really hasn't caused the problems that we were afraid it would. However I say that only because there are very few appeals per season anyway. Fed needs to try to clean up some of the loopholes over the winter.
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Fri Apr 26, 2002, 08:00am
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Quote:
We know that an accidental appeal must be on a forced runner, and that action of retiring the forced runner must occur during continuous action.
Ruling: B1 is out. Because the force play is being made on the runner and is a result of continuing action [my emphasis], F3 is not required to appeal the missed base and needs only to complete the force out. That is why the scenerio of intentionally walking batters and then obtaining an accidental appeal cannot occur. Such "accidental" appeal would not be a result of continuous action. A specific appeal would be required. Just my opinion, Freix
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Fri Apr 26, 2002, 10:06am
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Thank you Freix. Please note my previous post in this thread.
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Fri Apr 26, 2002, 10:52am
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Yes, the "accidents" can happen on forces only. That's why they're accidental forces, NOT appeals. The question is just when continuing action ends. At the time of "relaxed live ball"?
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greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide!
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Fri Apr 26, 2002, 11:12am
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The question is just when continuing action ends
Without a proper definition of "continuing action", my interpretation is that the continuing action ends at the end of the play involving the runner missing the base to which he was forced. The Fed defines a play as "a unit of action which begins when a pitcher has the ball in his possession in pitching position and ends when ball becomes dead or pitcher again holds the ball while in pitching position". So my interpretation of the rule is that an "accidental force" is only ruled upon until the end of the play. Anytime after that, the defense must make a proper appeal. I believe this is the intent the Fed has, they just haven't put it in black & white (does that surprise anyone??).
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