POTEOD #2

[Carl Childress]

The following play is quoted from .... (I won't tell you where until Friday. It matters!)

Bootnose Hofmann is catching and there's a play at the plate. The runner slides around Hoffman's tag, but also misses the plate. Hoffman doesn't notice the runner missed home. When the runner reaches the dugout, the first baseman yells to Hofmann that the runner missed home. Hofmann runs into the dugout and begins tagging everybody in sight, but the runner sneaks out of the end of the dugout before he is tagged and bolts back toward home plate. Hofmann throws the ball to p[itcher Coonskin Davis, who is now covering and the runner beats the throw. Is the runner safe and do you score the run, or is he out when the team on the field begins the appeal process while he has already retired to the dugout? It's your call."

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Papa C
Editor, eUmpire

[Mark Land]

Score the run!

The runner is not out simply because he entered the dugout. Catcher does not have to chase him, he could have simply tagged the plate, but he did not.

Once runner comes out and nears the plate, now he must be tagged. He was not.

No appeal. No tag. Count the run.

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Take care,
Mark

[DrC.]

I am going to say he is out. Why ??? For a combination of 2 reasons.
1 - Rule 7.08J
Rule 7.08 (j). (k) In running or sliding for home base, he fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to the base, when a fielder holds the ball in his hand, while touching home base, and appeals to the umpire for the decision. This rule applies only where runner is on his way to the bench and the catcher would be required to chase him. It does not apply to the ordinary play where the runner misses the plate and then immediately makes an effort to touch the plate before being tagged. In that case, runner must be tagged.
2 - APPROVED RULING OF 7.08 (a).
APPROVED RULING: When a batter becomes a runner on third strikenot caught, and starts for his bench or position, he may advance to first base at any time before he enters the bench. To put him out, the defense
must tag him or first base before he touches first base.

I think the "BEFORE HE ENTERS THE BENCH" would hold true for the original question as well. He has entered DEAD BALL AREA and also
has abandoned his running of the bases. By touching the plate or Appealing to the umpire would declare the runner OUT !!!

Sometimes I feel like we need to be like a lawyer when we interpret these rules (Ouch!!)

[Bob]

If I recall, there was a thread on another board a couple months ago about this, and the answer there was he would be safe.

But I think that was OBR.

In FED I believe he is out once he enters dead ball area.

So I think the correct answer is......

YES!!!!!!!!!


Bob

[Hugo Tafurstnow]

(snip)(I won't tell you where until Friday. It matters!)

My guess is that it matters because there is a difference between Fed. & OBR.
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If it's Fed, I'm unqualified to opine.

If it's OBR (and if I understand what I've read recently) I'm with Mark.
-Runner can return, even after entering dugout
-Runner beat the throw anyway
-Score the run
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Bootnose Hofmann is catching and there's a play at the plate. The runner slides around Hoffman's tag, but also misses the plate. Hoffman doesn't notice the runner missed home. When the runner reaches the dugout, the first baseman yells to Hofmann that the runner missed home. Hofmann runs into the dugout and begins tagging everybody in sight, but the runner sneaks out of the end of the dugout before he is tagged and bolts back toward home plate. Hofmann throws the ball to p[itcher Coonskin Davis, who is now covering and the runner beats the throw. Is the runner safe and do you score the run, or is he out when the team on the field begins the appeal process while he has already retired to the dugout? It's your call."

[David B]

The runner is returning, the play is unrelaxed so he must be tagged.

Thus he is safe. Play on and chew the catcher. All he had to do was appeal and tag the plate while the runner was heading to or was in the dugout.

Thanks
David Blackwell

[bluezebra]

quote:

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Originally posted by Carl Childress:
The following play is quoted from .... (I won't tell you where until Friday. It matters!)

Bootnose Hofmann is catching and there's a play at the plate. The runner slides around Hoffman's tag, but also misses the plate. Hoffman doesn't notice the runner missed home. When the runner reaches the dugout, the first baseman yells to Hofmann that the runner missed home. Hofmann runs into the dugout and begins tagging everybody in sight, but the runner sneaks out of the end of the dugout before he is tagged and bolts back toward home plate. Hofmann throws the ball to p[itcher Coonskin Davis, who is now covering and the runner beats the throw. Is the runner safe and do you score the run, or is he out when the team on the field begins the appeal process while he has already retired to the dugout? It's your call."

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Runner was out when he entered dugout.
Bootnose and Coonskin. Game was played in Arkansas or Tennessee, right?
Bob

[rex]

In FED sense there is no appeal as soon as the runner stepped into the dugout he was out.


In OBR the catcher carried the ball into deadball territory he can't throw it back to the pitcher and make it live again. (Can he?)


As I see it the ball was dead so it is assumed the runner scored, as there was no appeal.


rex

[Warren Willson]

I don't know FED either, so like Hugo I won't "opine" on that subject. Take the following to be OBR only:

1. Can a runner return after he enters the dugout after passing home plate?

YES. According to Cris Jones of PBUC, UNLESS in the judgement of the umpire the runner had lingered there far too long. (This prevents a runner returning, say between innings, while the infield is still "occupied" by at least one defensive infielder eg F5 heading for 1B dugout but the catcher and everyone else is off the diamond readying for their offensive half inning).

2. Is the catcher able to carry the ball into the dugout and the ball remain alive?

YES. Play is still alive on a catch and carry into dead ball territory. [cf OBR 5.10(f)]

3. Can the catcher throw the ball from dead ball territory after carrying the ball there?

YES. The ball is alive and in play (provided he hasn't dropped it first, of course). [cf OBR 5.10(f)]


4. Is the runner's return from the dugout a nexus between "relaxed" and "unrelaxed" action?

YES. While the runner is in the field of play and attempting to return to a missed base the subsequent action is "unrelaxed" and the runner must be tagged for the out. If he makes no effort to return, the subsequent action is "relaxed" and an obvious appeal by tagging the base will suffice.

5. Does the run score in this case?

You BETCHA! We had neither a tag out nor a timely appeal ("runner beat the ball").

Cheers,

Warren Willson
(PS. Carl, I hope I haven't stolen your "thunder" on this'n. I refrained from posting until all others had an opportunity, and I DID leave you FED. )

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Member and Co-Moderator, UT