NFHS Baseball R1-S2-A3 (On-deck Circle)

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I want to start out by apologizing for what will be a long post but it is partly rant and partly a request for learned observations, opinions, recommendations, and rules interpretations (The league being discussed uses NFHS Baseball Rules.).

The rules of baseball define where teams are to have their on-deck batters warm up. NFHS Baseball R1-S2-A3 states: “The on-deck circle should be to the side and away from home plate, 37 feet if space allows. Neither team's players shall warm up in the other team's on-deck circle. The on-deck circle does not have to be occupied, but if a player wishes to warm up, he shall do so only in his team's on-deck circle, provided the
on-deck circle is located safely away from home plate.” In fact all major baseball and fast pitch softball rules codes (NFHS, NCAA, ASA, USSSA, and MLB/OBR) literally the same with regard to the on-deck circle.

High school baseball and fast pitch softball teams have no problem with this rule, but when it comes to summer baseball and fast pitch softball, my partners and I have been getting a lot of grief from coaches, parents, and leagues/tournaments when we require on-deck batters to warm up on their team’s dug out side of the diamond. These people have the misguided belief that it is safer for the on-deck batter to be directly behind the batter, as close as ten (10) feet in some cases. This trend has been around for at least five years or more.

Our two sons (Mark, Jr., the umpire, and Andy) both play on a summer Knothole (15-18) baseball team in a league that uses NFHS Baseball Rules. This summer is the third year (and second year for this particular team which we will call Team A) that Mark has played in this league and the first year for both the league and Team A that Andy has played.

The first two years that Mark played in the league, Mark always took a warm up position on the same of the diamond as his team’s dugout, just like the rules require, but this year, the umpires, the league, and his own coach are adamant that on-deck batters are to be directly behind the batter, no matter what the rules require.

The league had a mid-season tournament this past weekend and Mark’s team occupied the first base dugout for their Saturday evening game. Mark was listed in the line-up behind a right handed batter. The second time the batter before Mark in the line-up took his place in the batter’s box, Mark took a position along the first base fence line about 45 feet away from home plate. Before a pitch was thrown, the PU instructed Mark to move to the third base side of the diamond. Mark looked at me for guidance and I told him to stay put. I know I should have kept my mouth shut, but it is difficult to have respect for a PU who is wearing khaki colored cargo shorts and not wearing hat under his mask; the umpires in this league, both PU and BU, wear khaki colored cargo shorts. The umpires in a crew are not required to wear the same color shirts. At this point, Mark’s head coach orders him to go to the third base side of the dugout. Mark moves across the diamond and takes a position along the third base fence line approximately 45 feet away from home plate. But wait, just when it can’t get any worse, the PU orders Mark to take a position about twelve (12) feet directly behind the batter. By now I am not a happy camper, but I say nothing more.

But things do get “better” the next afternoon. Mark’s team is assigned the third base dugout on the same diamond and again Mark is batting behind the same player as the evening before. The first time Mark was the on-deck batter he took a position along the third base fence line approximately 45 feet away from home plate. But wait, the head coach of our son’s opponents comes out of the first base dugout and orders, yes I said orders, the PU to have Mark to take a position about twelve (12) feet directly behind the batter.

How can this be you ask. Easy, the head coach of Mark’s opponents was the PU in their game the previous evening and is the league’s UIC. Can you see where I am going with this post: coaches, umpires, and a league that doesn’t believe in following the rules, and a UIC who thinks it is okay that he can umpire in tournament in which he is coaching a team and that he can also the UIC in a game that he is coaching a team.

Since then I have exchanged a number of emails with members of the league’s board of directors over NFHS R1-S2-A3 and everyone one of them give the same excuses for ignoring the NFHS rule: 1) the league has always done it this way, and 2) they have this misguided belief that the on-deck batter is safer when he is directly behind and only twelve (12) feet or so away from the batter. The amazing thing about this whole affair is that the local high school has played their freshmen boys’ baseball games there in the mid-1990’s and I umpired games there and the NFHS rule was never a problem. I was even told by one director that he discussed this matter with baseball fans, high school umpires, and college and professional baseball players and they all agree that the NFHS rules are wrong and should be ignored. I told him that baseball fans and college and professional baseball players do not qualify as experts of the rules of the game, and any high school umpire that would knowingly disregard a rule should not be allowed to umpire a baseball game.

I can understand the coaches and league directors not understanding the rules, they are only concerned with doing the same old thing the same old way even if it is wrong. But someday a player is going to get hurt because they are not where the rules require them to be.

Thanks for letting me rant. But I will entertain comments. Maybe some of the league directors will read this thread and come to their senses.

MTD, Sr.

[Fritz]

Can't say that I have ever seen the on-deck behind or even that close to the batter in this area. I do run into a team now and then who wants their on-deck to warm up in whichever O-D circle is behind the batter's back - on the theory that the O-D is less likely to get hit with a line drive foul. However, there is then the concern that if this puts them by the opposing team dugout, they would be privvy to team-related instructions (at best) and aggressive heckling by their opponent (at worst).

I solve this by telling the coach that if the foul ball is a concern, they should have their O-D warm up much farther down the line then - closer to their base coach. That seems to satisfy every coach that has made the original request.

[Dave Reed]

I think this is not an important issue to get upset (rant) about. But in the spirit of observing the letter of the rule:

Interestingly, I see nothing in 1-2-3 or 2-23 that specifies the on-deck circle should be on the same side of the diamond as a team's dugout. Secondly, while there is a 37 foot specification, it only applies if space permits. Otherwise, the OD circle should be a safe distance away. So, I'm not convinced that the letter of the rule is being breeched. Not that I think the letter of the rule is very important here.

Practically, I am quite sure that a player positioned behind a batter is less likely to be struck by a batted ball than if he were on the front side of the batter, even if he is only a dozen feet behind (which would be inside the cutout, by the way. Are you sure they are that close?) If the position behind the batter is nearer the opposing dugout, there is a higher likelihood of confrontation, and I suppose that's why the local rule keeps the player close to home plate.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Thanks for letting me rant. But I will entertain comments. Maybe some of the league directors will read this thread and come to their senses.

MTD, Sr.

I have teams try to move behind the batter and use the other team's circle and my response is always the same: "Hey, over THERE." Works for me.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

but when it comes to summer baseball and fast pitch softball, my partners and I have been getting a lot of grief from coaches, parents, and leagues/tournaments when we require on-deck batters to warm up on their team’s dug out side of the diamond.

Softball, other than rec-ball house leagues and I'm not sure about U-Trip the only orginazation I know of that allows the ODB to warm up on either side is NSA.

[DG]

As an umpire I would refuse to give in to the 12' behind the batter mentality. It's not safe there, 37' away may not be either but it's better than 12' behind the batter.

As a Coach I would have my batters warm up behind the dugout if 12' behind the batter is the tournament rule.

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

Not that I think the letter of the rule is very important here.

So you just pick and choose which rules to apply by the letter of the rule ? I'm not trying to pick a fight, or be demeaning , I'm just curious
why you feel this way.

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by DG

As an umpire I would refuse to give in to the 12' behind the batter mentality. It's not safe there, 37' away may not be either but it's better than 12' behind the batter.

As a Coach I would have my batters warm up behind the dugout if 12' behind the batter is the tournament rule.

I'm curious as to why the rules set the minimum distance at "37 feet", if any closer would be safe, as the rest of the rule would imply. 12 feet surely isn't very safe.

[SAump]

First, I also have a problem w/ a coach taking a position behind the plate in the same tourney where his team is participating. This is not the place to be scouting an opposing pitcher's command of the strike zone.

Second, I have a problem with a rule modification unless it was clearly stated in the local ground rules. Even then, I would politely request an explanation from league officials as to how this 12-ft trend line came to be in place. State that it is a new situation and you just want some info.

Third, and take this lightly, read the comments one of the league directors made to you and how you responded to those comments. He may have said that just to shrug you away, hoping you would let it go. Try to find out more about the situation and avoid any rash judgement about those people. Step away from this issue for a while. It should be clear that most "baseball" people acknowledge the usefulness of NFHS rulebook, even as poorly written as it may be.

Fourth, I like DG's comment about warming up outside the field, or perhaps off the right or left field fence line, if it is possible w/out delay. Otherwise I would have the bats ready for the players to warmup while the defense is taking the field. I would then encourage them to rest in the dugout until it is their turn to bat.

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by umpduck11

So you just pick and choose which rules to apply by the letter of the rule ?

The umpiring community as a whole picks and chooses which rules to apply by letter. Jim Evans has famously listed 234 (or some similar number) of errors in OBR. Most of those errors are instances in which we apply the rules differently than written. In some instances, the rules are self-inconsistent, and one part or the other of a written rule necessarily has to be ignored.

Even a casual fan of baseball knows that umpires universally enforce a strike zone which is different from the letter of the rule.

Regarding the rules associated with the on-deck batter, there are a couple of reasons to not enforce the letter. First, the rule carries an unjustified level of precision. I think it is obvious to everybody that 36 or 38 feet are nearly as appropriate as 37 feet. I've never seen an umpire with a tape measure checking the on-deck circle for compliance.

Second, the rules themselves recognize that many fields don't have sufficient space, and the rules end up settling for whatever is safe. I suppose in that sense, I do favor following the letter of the rule!

[zebra2955]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

I think this is not an important issue to get upset (rant) about. But in the spirit of observing the letter of the rule:

Interestingly, I see nothing in 1-2-3 or 2-23 that specifies the on-deck circle should be on the same side of the diamond as a team's dugout. Secondly, while there is a 37 foot specification, it only applies if space permits. Otherwise, the OD circle should be a safe distance away. So, I'm not convinced that the letter of the rule is being breeched. Not that I think the letter of the rule is very important here.

Practically, I am quite sure that a player positioned behind a batter is less likely to be struck by a batted ball than if he were on the front side of the batter, even if he is only a dozen feet behind (which would be inside the cutout, by the way. Are you sure they are that close?) If the position behind the batter is nearer the opposing dugout, there is a higher likelihood of confrontation, and I suppose that's why the local rule keeps the player close to home plate.

1-2-3 states Neither teams players shall warm up in the others team on deck circle. 2-23 states to use Diagram 2 which has the on deck circle on the sides of the field

Personnally I keep them on their side of the field and try to maitain a safe distance

[bob jenkins]

Leagues frequently have thier own rules. This league has one regarding on-deck circles. They aren't the only one (although it's more common at lower levels than at higher levels).

That said, I think 12' seems "too close" and the instance of moving from 45' "behind" the batter to 12' behind the batter (when MTD Jr.'s team was in the third base dugout) seems a little strange.

Mark -- you're an engineer. Go to "all" the games and gather data on where "line drive fouls" end up. Put it on a chart and use that to (help) determine the "safest" spot.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Leagues frequently have thier own rules. This league has one regarding on-deck circles. They aren't the only one (although it's more common at lower levels than at higher levels).

That said, I think 12' seems "too close" and the instance of moving from 45' "behind" the batter to 12' behind the batter (when MTD Jr.'s team was in the third base dugout) seems a little strange.

Mark -- you're an engineer. Go to "all" the games and gather data on where "line drive fouls" end up. Put it on a chart and use that to (help) determine the "safest" spot.

Bob:

The problem with this league is that there is no such league rule. League rules specifically state that the playing rules are NFHS. The league directors use the excuse that coaches have been doing it and they don't have a problem with violating the league playing rules.

The league is based in Temperance, Michigan (that state up north, , go Bucks!) and the UIC is not a MichiganHSAA registered umpire, so his knowledge of NFHS Baseball Rules has already been proven questionable and he definitely has any knowlege of officiating ethics.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by SAump

First, I also have a problem w/ a coach taking a position behind the plate in the same tourney where his team is participating. This is not the place to be scouting an opposing pitcher's command of the strike zone.

Second, I have a problem with a rule modification unless it was clearly stated in the local ground rules. Even then, I would politely request an explanation from league officials as to how this 12-ft trend line came to be in place. State that it is a new situation and you just want some info.

Third, and take this lightly, read the comments one of the league directors made to you and how you responded to those comments. He may have said that just to shrug you away, hoping you would let it go. Try to find out more about the situation and avoid any rash judgement about those people. Step away from this issue for a while. It should be clear that most "baseball" people acknowledge the usefulness of NFHS rulebook, even as poorly written as it may be.

Fourth, I like DG's comment about warming up outside the field, or perhaps off the right or left field fence line, if it is possible w/out delay. Otherwise I would have the bats ready for the players to warmup while the defense is taking the field. I would then encourage them to rest in the dugout until it is their turn to bat.

SAump:

As I just posted to Bob Jenkins. The league has not on-deck rule except the NFHS Baseball Rules which it states quite clearly is the league (and mid-season and end of season tournaments) playing rules. The league directors response is that our umpires have always done it that way. Which really is not a logical reason to knowingly break the rules.

I agree with DG's comment about warming up in dead ball territory. I have given coaches that option many times and even told the league directors that as an umpire I would have no problem if the league wanted to adopt a rule that required the on-deck batter to warm up in dead ball territory. That was a solution that was too obvious to the league directors.

And since the UIC is not a registered MichiganHSAA baseball umpire I am not surprised that he umpired in the tournament and then acted as the UIC in a game he was coaching really shows that he has no concept of officiating ethics. Mark, Jr. just graduated from high school last month and I have been telling my assigners since he was in 7th grade not to assign me Start H.S. athletic contests. And since I am vice-president of the athletic boosters it is even more important that I do not present an appearance of a conflict of interest.

The real thing that burns my tuchus is that this problem does not exist in high school baseball and fast pitch softball. I can't remember the last time I had an on-deck batter in either sport want to go to the opposite to warm up and softball diamonds usually more confined that baseball diamonds.

This is a trend that is being promoted by people who have no knowledge of the rules and the umpires who do know the rules and being made the scape goats in this situation.

MTD, Sr.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

(snipped)...The on-deck circle does not have to be occupied, but if a player wishes to warm up, he shall do so only in his team's on-deck circle, provided the
on-deck circle is located safely away from home plate.” In fact all major baseball and fast pitch softball rules codes (NFHS, NCAA, ASA, USSSA, and MLB/OBR) literally the same with regard to the on-deck circle.

In OBR, the next batter up must be in the on-deck circle, and this is the only player who should be there. (Official Interp 71-88, PBUC, for use in OBR games.)