Asking partner for help...

[Fritz]

I'm with you guys, I wasn't in position to see the call so couldn't help. But it got me thinking with all the "if they ask, you gotta appeal for help whether you want to or not" posts on the check swing. What is so different here.

On the check swing OP, my partner was in B and not really in position there either to rule on a non-check that I knew I had not missed (it wasn't close to being a swing). That coach was being a rat by trying to force the issue and not accepting my explanation that partner wasn't in position to make a ruling. But doesn't the same philosophy apply here too? If you aren't in position to rule and the coach still asks, do you still have to go to your partner?

Don't want to sound argumentative, just looking for guidance -

[TussAgee11]

Fritz - I believe that the argument may come down to the fact that partner in B has a better look at a check swing then the home plate umpire.

I'm not going to argue that BU in B or even C gets a good enough look on a check swing, even good enough to overrule PU at times. Any umpire that is worth a damn can get a decent to good look at a check swing in B or C.

I just hope that BU doesn't "get a strike back" that PU KNEW wasn't there to begin with...

Those who participate in schools... is the idea of PU taking the strike call right away being emphasized more? Or does it just seem that at the MLB level the plate umpire is getting more strikes on those check swings rather than balling the pitch and then appealing?

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I just hope that BU doesn't "get a strike back" that PU KNEW wasn't there to begin with...

Why does this seem so personal with you? I'd bet there's not one of us who hasn't had the BU answer in the affirmative when asked if the batter swing at the pitch. Adjust the count and move on. Jeez-o-pete! It's not like your manhood is being questioned.

[TussAgee11]

Walt - I don't know why I've struck a chord.

I've said if PU was unsure if the batter swung, then he should always get help.

I do not agree that it is a good idea to ask for an appeal to another umpire when the original, calling umpire knew he was right. We wouldn't do it in any other sitch, but the rules say we do it in this one. Why? I'm still not sure.

It has nothing to do with my ego or manhood being challenged as PU. If I think my partner may have information I didn't have, I'm always glad to get it. I don't see how all check swings fit this bill though.

I'll fade into the sunset, we're just talking in circles.

[RPatrino]

Fritz, how far up the 3b line where you? You should be no more than 3/4 up the line, as the ball and runner never arrived at 3b. If you were in the cut-out you were wrong. You should be drifting back toward the plate. Your responsibility was R2's advance on the tag, not a second throw in the infield. The BU needs to get both sides of that play.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I do not agree that it is a good idea to ask for an appeal to another umpire when the original, calling umpire knew he was right. We wouldn't do it in any other sitch, but the rules say we do it in this one. Why? I'm still not sure.

1) The plate umpire has multiple things to watch -- and they might be happening at different locations.

2) Sometimes what a plate umpire "knows for certain" isn't what happened.

3) I've "never" had a coach ask to check if there wasn't some movement of the bat. If coaches are being a PITA about asking, then deal with that.

4) The time spent denying the request and then explaining it is longer thatn the time to check.

5) By tradition, if you don't check, you get the chit. If you ask, BU gets the chit (no matter the call).

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

1) The plate umpire has multiple things to watch -- and they might be happening at different locations.

2) Sometimes what a plate umpire "knows for certain" isn't what happened.

3) I've "never" had a coach ask to check if there wasn't some movement of the bat. If coaches are being a PITA about asking, then deal with that.

4) The time spent denying the request and then explaining it is longer thatn the time to check.

5) By tradition, if you don't check, you get the chit. If you ask, BU gets the chit (no matter the call).

I once had a college coach tell me I couldn't make a check swing call from the middle. My response (when he walked past me later and wanted to start needling me about the call) was, "I have to make that call. You only hire two umpires."

I ask every time. It's amazing how a few times a year I'm tracking a pitch and I'm CERTAIN the batter didn't offer, only to have my BU overturn my call of "Ball. No, he didn't go." Doesn't bother me a bit. "Then it's a strike. One ball, two strikes." Inside I'm giddy that I'm one strike closer to an out. Doesn't wound my pride or anything like that.

When I started working high school games in 1987, my plate umpire and his pillow told me that if he came to me with the palm up, I should just agree with his call of ball. First time he did that, the batter almost screwed himself into the ground and I called a strike. Teams were not surprised and partner asked about it afterwards - I told him what had happened and he told me that he was glad then that I did that so he wouldn't look bad.

Things have changed, though. I've called check swing strikes from A, B, C, and D the past few years and nobody gets worked up over where you are anymore, except for the occasional 40-year coach who should've retired 15 years ago and the occasional Old Smitty.

If I'm unsure whether the batter's offered, I'll go even without being asked. Why guess? The worst crap I see on a field is the plate umpire calling a swinging strike when the batter obviously didn't offer. The teams will wonder why you decided to take that yourself when you have a partner out there that can help on the call. Some of the less enlightened will not understand that you can only appeal a PU's call of ball and wonder why you didn't get help, of course, and there's not much you can do about that.

[TussAgee11]

Regarding seeing things from B or C...

2 weekends ago, top of the 1st in a AAU DH. Lefty pitcher starts towards home then comes to first. I get the balk. Coach yells something from dugout, I ignore.

Then coach comes out to about 5-10 feet away from me... and says "How can you see that from there?"

I said back "Somebody has to!"

Coach retreated back in pretty quickly.

[David B]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I once had a college coach tell me I couldn't make a check swing call from the middle. My response (when he walked past me later and wanted to start needling me about the call) was, "I have to make that call. You only hire two umpires."

I ask every time. It's amazing how a few times a year I'm tracking a pitch and I'm CERTAIN the batter didn't offer, only to have my BU overturn my call of "Ball. No, he didn't go." Doesn't bother me a bit. "Then it's a strike. One ball, two strikes." Inside I'm giddy that I'm one strike closer to an out. Doesn't wound my pride or anything like that.

When I started working high school games in 1987, my plate umpire and his pillow told me that if he came to me with the palm up, I should just agree with his call of ball. First time he did that, the batter almost screwed himself into the ground and I called a strike. Teams were not surprised and partner asked about it afterwards - I told him what had happened and he told me that he was glad then that I did that so he wouldn't look bad.

Things have changed, though. I've called check swing strikes from A, B, C, and D the past few years and nobody gets worked up over where you are anymore, except for the occasional 40-year coach who should've retired 15 years ago and the occasional Old Smitty.

If I'm unsure whether the batter's offered, I'll go even without being asked. Why guess? The worst crap I see on a field is the plate umpire calling a swinging strike when the batter obviously didn't offer. The teams will wonder why you decided to take that yourself when you have a partner out there that can help on the call. Some of the less enlightened will not understand that you can only appeal a PU's call of ball and wonder why you didn't get help, of course, and there's not much you can do about that.

A great post by a veteran umpire who understands the game.

Don't guess, don't play games, just make the calls.

Thanks
David