Asking partner for help...

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

First off, I don't care if we get an extra strike out of it. I just want to get it right, whether I'm PU or BU.

A technique I tell my partners is if I come up "softly" to you on an appeal, that means there is no way in hell he went. I'll often times delay my own point after the catcher's point, won't make it crisp, and will not include a LOUD, "Did he go?" I might also add a step to the side before I make my point.

If I'm truly in the dark, as soon as catcher points, I'm a beat behind him. My left hand is alot crisper with the mechanic and my "Did he go?" can be heard clearly by everyone. That is when I need help from BU, and he knows the difference.

Works well.

Aside from the usual stuff when working with a partner pregame etc. there are three more important rules: TRUST YOUR PARTNER, TRUST YOUR PARTNER AND TRUST YOUR PARTNER. Secret Signals imply that you don't trust your partner.

I'ver NEVER worked with a partner (I've had many over the years) that had secret signals. If one ever suggests this.............. "he's getting what I got".

[Fritz]

Must be my week to keep steppin' in stuff.........after tracking the posts related to my OP about a check swing appeal and the consensus that if a coach asks, you gotta do it, this is what I get last night:

15U, I'm PU, no outs, R1 and R2. Medium fly hit to right, I tell my partner that I've got R2 to 3rd if he goes. Partner slides from C toward B to watch the catch and R1. Everything is good so far.

F9 makes the catch and throws to 1st to catch R1 who had gone to "halfway" and is now scrambling to get back. Throw is off line (toward 2nd) and bang-bang. My partner calls R1 out and what happens............OC at 1st starts screaming that F3 pulled his foot, and you know what comes next............OHC yells for his team to appeal to "the other blue" (me, standing more than halfway down the 3B line). I turn to look at the OHC (in 3rd base dugout) as my partner calls Time; then the OHC notices where I am at and says "well, forget that". Meanwhile, I'm thinking........"wonder what the boys will say on the board when I post this sitch tomorrow!"

I knew the play at first was happening, but as it was, R2 was tagging for a move to 3rd if the ball got by 1B so I didn't really see the actual call.

And if the OHC had gone ahead and asked for the appeal, my partner and I should have done what?

[canadaump6]

Originally Posted by Fritz

And if the OHC had gone ahead and asked for the appeal, my partner and I should have done what?

Do not appeal, stick with the out call. The should have had an angle to see whether or not he pulled the foot at first.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Must be my week to keep steppin' in stuff.........after tracking the posts related to my OP about a check swing appeal and the consensus that if a coach asks, you gotta do it, this is what I get last night:

15U, I'm PU, no outs, R1 and R2. Medium fly hit to right, I tell my partner that I've got R2 to 3rd if he goes. Partner slides from C toward B to watch the catch and R1. Everything is good so far.

F9 makes the catch and throws to 1st to catch R1 who had gone to "halfway" and is now scrambling to get back. Throw is off line (toward 2nd) and bang-bang. My partner calls R1 out and what happens............OC at 1st starts screaming that F3 pulled his foot, and you know what comes next............OHC yells for his team to appeal to "the other blue" (me, standing more than halfway down the 3B line). I turn to look at the OHC (in 3rd base dugout) as my partner calls Time; then the OHC notices where I am at and says "well, forget that". Meanwhile, I'm thinking........"wonder what the boys will say on the board when I post this sitch tomorrow!"

I knew the play at first was happening, but as it was, R2 was tagging for a move to 3rd if the ball got by 1B so I didn't really see the actual call.

And if the OHC had gone ahead and asked for the appeal, my partner and I should have done what?

1. As plate umpire you can't help out on the play. You have the play at third and are way out of position.

2. To appease the OHC get together (be sure noone can hear) and stick with the original call.

OHC thinks you checked. DHC doesn't care because nothing has changed.

[BigTex]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

2. To appease the OHC get together (be sure noone can hear) and stick with the original call.

Why do this? Have some stones and tell the coach that it was MY call, I saw it, I do not need to check with anybody. If you are not looking for your partner's input, then don't get together. All you are doing there is giving the coach someone else to b!tch at. It is not your job to appease anyone.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by BigTex

Why do this? Have some stones and tell the coach that it was MY call, I saw it, I do not need to check with anybody. If you are not looking for your partner's input, then don't get together. All you are doing there is giving the coach someone else to b!tch at. It is not your job to appease anyone.

It's got nothing to do with having the "stones to make the call". It has everything to do with getting him back in the dugout so we can play on and yes perhaps keeping him in the game.

Did I check with my partner? No it's my call. Does he think I checked yes. I did what he wanted. At this point after I say "hey my partner saw what I saw" 99.9% of the time he heads back to the dugout. Do I do this everytime he asks me to get help? Absolutely not. Most of the time the answer is "it's my call." The only time I do this is when I'm the base umpire and it involves a pulled foot or swipe tag. Rarely if ever will (can't remember the last time I did this) I look to my partner for assistance. In the event of a contorversial play who gets to clean up the mess? My partner because I was a lazy a** on the play and didn't get into position.

[BigTex]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

It's got nothing to do with having the "stones to make the call". It has everything to do with getting him back in the dugout so we can play on and yes perhaps keeping him in the game.

Did I check with my partner? No it's my call. Does he think I checked yes. I did what he wanted. At this point after I say "hey my partner saw what I saw" 99.9% of the time he heads back to the dugout. Do I do this everytime he asks me to get help? Absolutely not. Most of the time the answer is "it's my call." The only time I do this is when I'm the base umpire and it involves a pulled foot or swipe tag. Rarely if ever will (can't remember the last time I did this) I look to my partner for assistance. In the event of a contorversial play who gets to clean up the mess? My partner because I was a lazy a** on the play and didn't get into position.

I did not say anything about having stones to make a call, have the stones to stand up to the coach. You are basically lying by "checking" with your partner, and the coach probably knows it. What are you going to do on the next close call and the other coach wants you to "get help?" If you stand up to the first call, the next time you won't have to huddle either. If you want to huddle every time a coach asks, just to appease him, go right ahead, but you better have a lot of ice in the cooler, because your beer will be warm by the time your marathon is over.

[gordon30307]

Originally Posted by BigTex

I did not say anything about having stones to make a call, have the stones to stand up to the coach. You are basically lying buy "checking" with your partner, and the coach probably knows it. What are you going to do on the next close call and the other coach wants you to "get help?" If you stand up to the first call, the next time you won't have to huddle either. If you want to huddle every time a coach asks, just to appease him, go right ahead, but you better have a lot of ice in the cooler, because your beer will be warm by the time your marathon is over.

Oh stop yourself. The freakin point passed right over your head.

Have a good rest of the weekend.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

It's got nothing to do with having the "stones to make the call". It has everything to do with getting him back in the dugout so we can play on and yes perhaps keeping him in the game.

Did I check with my partner? No it's my call. Does he think I checked yes. I did what he wanted. At this point after I say "hey my partner saw what I saw" 99.9% of the time he heads back to the dugout. Do I do this everytime he asks me to get help? Absolutely not. Most of the time the answer is "it's my call." The only time I do this is when I'm the base umpire and it involves a pulled foot or swipe tag. Rarely if ever will (can't remember the last time I did this) I look to my partner for assistance. In the event of a contorversial play who gets to clean up the mess? My partner because I was a lazy a** on the play and didn't get into position.

There's a much simpler solution if you want the coach back in the dugout. Just tell him to get back to his dugout! If he doesn't turn to go back, run his butt. The coach knows how to stay in the game, it's not up to us to help him do it.


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Fritz

And if the OHC had gone ahead and asked for the appeal, my partner and I should have done what?

PU to coach: "Not my call."

The End.

[Fritz]

I'm with you guys, I wasn't in position to see the call so couldn't help. But it got me thinking with all the "if they ask, you gotta appeal for help whether you want to or not" posts on the check swing. What is so different here.

On the check swing OP, my partner was in B and not really in position there either to rule on a non-check that I knew I had not missed (it wasn't close to being a swing). That coach was being a rat by trying to force the issue and not accepting my explanation that partner wasn't in position to make a ruling. But doesn't the same philosophy apply here too? If you aren't in position to rule and the coach still asks, do you still have to go to your partner?

Don't want to sound argumentative, just looking for guidance -

[TussAgee11]

Fritz - I believe that the argument may come down to the fact that partner in B has a better look at a check swing then the home plate umpire.

I'm not going to argue that BU in B or even C gets a good enough look on a check swing, even good enough to overrule PU at times. Any umpire that is worth a damn can get a decent to good look at a check swing in B or C.

I just hope that BU doesn't "get a strike back" that PU KNEW wasn't there to begin with...

Those who participate in schools... is the idea of PU taking the strike call right away being emphasized more? Or does it just seem that at the MLB level the plate umpire is getting more strikes on those check swings rather than balling the pitch and then appealing?

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I just hope that BU doesn't "get a strike back" that PU KNEW wasn't there to begin with...

Why does this seem so personal with you? I'd bet there's not one of us who hasn't had the BU answer in the affirmative when asked if the batter swing at the pitch. Adjust the count and move on. Jeez-o-pete! It's not like your manhood is being questioned.

[TussAgee11]

Walt - I don't know why I've struck a chord.

I've said if PU was unsure if the batter swung, then he should always get help.

I do not agree that it is a good idea to ask for an appeal to another umpire when the original, calling umpire knew he was right. We wouldn't do it in any other sitch, but the rules say we do it in this one. Why? I'm still not sure.

It has nothing to do with my ego or manhood being challenged as PU. If I think my partner may have information I didn't have, I'm always glad to get it. I don't see how all check swings fit this bill though.

I'll fade into the sunset, we're just talking in circles.

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by Fritz

Must be my week to keep steppin' in stuff.........after tracking the posts related to my OP about a check swing appeal and the consensus that if a coach asks, you gotta do it, this is what I get last night:

15U, I'm PU, no outs, R1 and R2. Medium fly hit to right, I tell my partner that I've got R2 to 3rd if he goes. Partner slides from C toward B to watch the catch and R1. Everything is good so far.

F9 makes the catch and throws to 1st to catch R1 who had gone to "halfway" and is now scrambling to get back. Throw is off line (toward 2nd) and bang-bang. My partner calls R1 out and what happens............OC at 1st starts screaming that F3 pulled his foot, and you know what comes next............OHC yells for his team to appeal to "the other blue" (me, standing more than halfway down the 3B line). I turn to look at the OHC (in 3rd base dugout) as my partner calls Time; then the OHC notices where I am at and says "well, forget that". Meanwhile, I'm thinking........"wonder what the boys will say on the board when I post this sitch tomorrow!"

I knew the play at first was happening, but as it was, R2 was tagging for a move to 3rd if the ball got by 1B so I didn't really see the actual call.

And if the OHC had gone ahead and asked for the appeal, my partner and I should have done what?

your responsibility to be a 3B ends when the throw goes to 1B. if R2 advances now it is no longer on the fly ball, it is on the throw. when the throw from F9 was released, you should have read immediately that there was going to be no play at 3B and retreated to the plate. granted, you probably still wouldn't have been able to see it cuz you'd still be tracking back to the plate area, but, by the time they realized that they wanted an appeal, you'd be back at home and would not have to deal with the, "well, forget that," comment from the coach who sees you standing up the 3B line waiting for a play that was never going to happen.