how would you fix this?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

The ball was fair why do we have a do over. Can you aboslutely beyond a reasonable doubt be certain that BR saw the signal? I'm assuming you're an umpire don't you scream foul on close ones down the line? Don't both teams expect this? If the ball is fair the proper call is out. Why penalize the defensive team because of poor mechanics? I win on appeal. Also I'm from Illinois the most corrupt state in the Union and I know people. LOL

The ball may have been in fair territory but the BU indicated foul.

The batter-runner stopped because he saw the foul call and reacted.

The S*&%house happened because the offense SAW the foul call.

It's foul - deal with it.

[bob jenkins]

I agree that the ball is foul.

[archangel]

gordon, soon a jury of 12 posters total will rule against you!

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

It wasn't "called foul" it was signalled foul

You are missing the point.

Whether you call FOUL or SIGNAL FOUL = FOUL

Example: PU puts the "stop sign up" towards F1.

That means we have TIME and DO NOT PITCH. The PU does need to say anything.

Bottom Line: Rightly or wrongly when the players hear or see an umpire signal FOUL they STOP.

There are those rare instances (in both the LLWS and a ML baseball game) where a FOUL call was changed to fair.

The ball in this play is FOUL. BU admitted mistake (hey it happens) now time to move on.

Pete Booth

[celebur]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

Why penalize the defensive team because of poor mechanics?

Why penalize the offensive team because of poor mechanics?

Originally Posted by gordon30307

I win on appeal.

Declaring it so doesn't make it so.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

Is that "fair" to the defensive team of depriving them of an out?

How do you know it deprived the D of an out? Your OP said F3 was playing "about 25 feet behind the bag." So he's lying on the ground in right field, and no one is covering 1st, at least not yet. Maybe you deprived the O of a base hit.

Lie isn't fair. The BU f'ed up. Sometimes you get the short end of the stick. Next.

[LittleLeagueBob]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

If the ball was clearly fair you have to stay with the call. All players have a responsibility to know what the situation is. Screaming foul (since this was close) would be expected. He may have signalled but he didn't verbally call it which would have been expected by both teams. Poor mechanics no question. If the ball was indeed fair the out is the correct call. BR may or may not have seen the foul signal. You don't know that for certain. No matter what you do you're in trouble. Declaring the ball "foul" almost amounts to a "do over". Eat the crow and make the correct call.

Gordon -

Altho the OP states OBR, I'm posting the FED case play here to give some guidance on what they want us to do in essentially the same situation. I think the Major League Umpire Manual has something silimar in it, but I don't have a copy - prehaps someone else can post that so you can see what OBR has to say...

2.16.1 SITUATION B: On a count of 1-ball, 2-strikes, B1 hits a ground ball down the third-base line and the umpire inadvertently declares “foul ball.” F6 fields the ball in fair territory and throws to F3. RULING: The ball is dead immediately once it hits the ground; B1 returns to bat with a count of 1-2.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Lie isn't fair. The BU f'ed up. Sometimes you get the short end of the stick. Next.

This man 'gets it.'

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

It wasn't "called foul" it was signalled foul

This man doesn't.

[Chris_Hickman]

FOUL

[umpjayfire]

Since I Am The Original Poster I Get The Last Word On This And Before I Tell You How We Ruled I Must Commend Gordon For Sticking To His Guns Even Though I Disagree....We Ruled It Foul, Saying That, Although The Mechanic Was Poor, The Foul Signal Has Pretty Much Killed The Action And Nothing Further Can Happen After That, Because We Killed The Ball, No Matter How Wrong It Was.
---gordon...as The Pu I Know For A Fact The Batter Stopped Because Of The Signal Because As Soon As My Bu Made The Out Mechanic He Turned To Me And Said ,"what The F--k, He Pointed Foul"...i Said," Give Me A Second While My Partner And I Figure It Out".....
End Result Is We Had No Ejections Because We Had A Good Rapport With The Defensive Coach And He Had Seen What Transpired...instead He Jokingly Ribbed My Partner For The Rest Of The Season...he Also Gave A Dvd Of The Sitch With My Partner Obvious Mouthing,"what The Blank Did I Just Do?" Clearly Visible To Him When He Saw Him Later In The Season As Another Joke....

Thanks For Everyone's Input

[Paul L]

The proper foul mechanic is raising both arms in the air and verbalizing "foul". Right? BU did not use either mechanic, just pointed with his left arm, presumedly toward foul territory. If memory serves, the foul mechanic was changed many years ago precisely to avoid accidental foul calls.
The proper fair mechanic is pointing towards fair territory and verbalizing nothing. This is what BU did, except for the accidental point in the wrong direction. So why is BR entitled to think foul was called?
Well, I guess I know the answer to that question. If the commonly understood foul signal caused BR to stop running, then BU has to eat the foul call.
But I was surprised no one mentioned the wrong foul signal. Is pointing foul, rather than raising both arms, the proper signal anywhere?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Paul L

The proper foul mechanic is raising both arms in the air and verbalizing "foul". Right? BU did not use either mechanic, just pointed with his left arm, presumedly toward foul territory. If memory serves, the foul mechanic was changed many years ago precisely to avoid accidental foul calls.
The proper fair mechanic is pointing towards fair territory and verbalizing nothing. This is what BU did, except for the accidental point in the wrong direction. So why is BR entitled to think foul was called?
Well, I guess I know the answer to that question. If the commonly understood foul signal caused BR to stop running, then BU has to eat the foul call.
But I was surprised no one mentioned the wrong foul signal. Is pointing foul, rather than raising both arms, the proper signal anywhere?

Both hands in the air is "time". Pointing is the indicator.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

This man doesn't.

You are correct. The sooner he gets off the 'fairness' kick, the better off he will be.

'It aint fair!' is a whiny coach's crutch. Don't use it.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by LMan

You are correct. The sooner he gets off the 'fairness' kick, the better off he will be.

I disagree. He's right to insist on fairness, but wrong in his understanding of what fairness requires.

BU signaled "foul," so BR stopped running. It's unfair to the offense to change the call at this point.

Gordon is concerned about fairness to the defense: how can you take away an out? You take it away because it was obtained unfairly due to an umpire's mistake.

Fairness--providing no advantage not intended by the rules--is the justification for the OBR ruling I posted in post #2 above.