Signals from the coach to the pitcher

[Rufus]

We're an 11U rec team playing under USSSA and are 8 games into a 10 game season. A couple of our pitchers are capable of throwing different pitches (4- and 2-seam fastballs, change ups) as well as pick-offs. For these couple I call the pitches from the dugout. For the first time last night the PU informed me that I wasn't allowed to do that and that I had to signal to the catcher who would, in turn, signal to the pitcher.

I found the following reference in the USSSA rulebook in 8.08.A

Pitchers shall take signs from the catcher while standing on the rubber.

The rule then goes into great detail about the windup and set positions, and how a balk can be called, but never addresses what happens if the pitcher receives signs from someone other than the catcher. A couple of questions:

• Is there a penalty to doing this? The PU said he would have to do "something" if the opposing coach makes a stink and I was sufficiently chastened that I didn't think to ask what "something" was.
• Can the pitcher stay off the rubber, receive signs from me, reingage the rubber, then pitch (as long as he doesn't try to "quick pitch")?
• While I know I have to adhere to the rule, and the origin doesn't make much difference in the grand scheme of things, can anyone tell me why this rule is in effect? Is it the same in FED and NCAA?

I know my catchers should be able to do something like this but, to be honest, I'm not sure the catchers I have would be able to handle it (though I may be underestimating them).

Thanks.

[mbyron]

This is an OBR rule, and is intended to prevent a quick pitch: the scenario to be prevented is one where the pitcher can hold a runner on base by straddling the rubber, take his sign, then step onto the plate and pitch before the runner can get any significant lead.

It is not the purpose of the rule to prevent anyone else from giving signs to the pitcher. So, properly interpreted, the rule would read, "If he takes a sign from the catcher, the pitcher shall do so while standing on the rubber."

As an umpire, I do not get involved in semeiotics, so I will not be looking into dugouts and watching every defensive player on the field to see whether they might be doing something that could be considered a "sign." I don't care whether the opponent complains: if they say that you're relaying signs from the dugout I'll say that's not illegal, and besides it doesn't look like signs to me.

To answer your questions:
1. OBR (and presumably USSSA) provides no penalty for taking signs from F2 off the rubber; it's a "don't do that." A quick pitch is an illegal pitch, of course.
2. Yes.
3. See above. FED and NCAA have the same rule, though the penalty is different (ball/balk in FED, ball in NCAA).

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by mbyron

3. See above. FED and NCAA have the same rule, though the penalty is different (ball/balk in FED, ball in NCAA).

mb,

Can you give me the FED reference for that? I had a partner call a balk in an AAU game using FED rules, because F1 was off the rubber taking his sign. I spoke to him later in the game, to verify that's what he called it for. I disagreed at the time, but the moment had passed, anyway.

I tried looking it up in the rulebook that day, but all I found was the part that said what the pitcher was supposed to do - take his signs on the rubber - and no part that said Penalty: XXXX. I thought I looked carefully, but I guess I didn't.

Thanks!

[dash_riprock]

The FED penalty for the "quick pitch/taking signs" (defined in ART 1) is on p. 42 "PENALTY (ART. 1, 2, 3):"

I agree with mb about the intent being to prevent the quick pitch. The only signals I care about are between me and my partner.

[JJ]

This is one of those "mountain/mole hill" things. Because it's hard to discern if a pitcher is indeed taking signs "off the rubber", the only thing the umpire should be concerned about is if the pitcher is quick-pitching. I've seen pitchers appear to be taking signs from a catcher when in fact he isn't taking signs at all, or is taking them from a bench coach. As long as he isn't quick-pitching, IMHO it's much ado about nothing. Maybe that's why OBR doesn't list a penalty..

JJ

[RPatrino]

Couple of things, 1) how complicated are your signals that you can't trust the catcher to accurately relay them to the pitcher. Solve this problem, make your signs simple, flash them to the catcher and have him relay them to the pitcher. You can also have your pitcher "peek" at you while you are giving the signs yet still have him get them 'officially' from the catcher. 2) If you are an umpire that worries about this infraction, GET A LIFE, and 3) what is semeiotics, and do I need a prescription for them?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by HokieUmp

mb,

Can you give me the FED reference for that? I had a partner call a balk in an AAU game using FED rules, because F1 was off the rubber taking his sign. I spoke to him later in the game, to verify that's what he called it for. I disagreed at the time, but the moment had passed, anyway.

I tried looking it up in the rulebook that day, but all I found was the part that said what the pitcher was supposed to do - take his signs on the rubber - and no part that said Penalty: XXXX. I thought I looked carefully, but I guess I didn't.

Thanks!

See 6-1-1 (presumably this is on p. 42 of dash's rule book ).

I would not have called a balk in your situation. For one thing, the rule is poorly written: by the letter of the rule, it's a balk when F2 gives the infield signs for the R1/R3 situation and F1 is not in contact.

Given the poor quality of the letter of the rule, we have to rely on its spirit, which is to prevent a quick pitch (which is always a balk with runners on, in any rule code).

As I say, I don't know who's signaling what to whom, and I don't want to know. As written, the FED rule seems unenforceable. But I do know a quick pitch when I see one (and I know how to deal with that).

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Couple of things, 1) how complicated are your signals that you can't trust the catcher to accurately relay them to the pitcher. Solve this problem, make your signs simple, flash them to the catcher and have him relay them to the pitcher. You can also have your pitcher "peek" at you while you are giving the signs yet still have him get them 'officially' from the catcher.

Trust me, not that complicated (I'm not smart enough to come up with something too complex!). The thing I've found with 11U is that they are good at taking small amounts of information in and processing it. Only as we get to the end of the season are they able to start stringing things together ("Oh, the warm up we do with three shuffles then a run is related to how we lead off and steal? Who knew?")

My primary catcher is unreliable with the basics of catching so I don't trust him to accurately relay what I'm calling either. I could work on it but, like I said, I didn't know it was a problem until yesterday. The season is almost over and my desire to add something new to the mix is limited.

[RPatrino]

Here's an other thought, why not have the catcher/pitcher call their own game? I've always wondered why coaches have to call every pitch. If he only throws a fastball and change-up, teach him when and how to use those pitches and let him learn the strategies of the pitch placement and speed changes. Just my 2cents. I coached for 15 years and almost never called a pitch. This is a learning environment, after all.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by mbyron

See 6-1-1 (presumably this is on p. 42 of dash's rule book ).

The rule is 6-1-1, but the penalty is set forth on the next page, at the end of 6-1-3.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Here's an other thought, why not have the catcher/pitcher call their own game? I've always wondered why coaches have to call every pitch. If he only throws a fastball and change-up, teach him when and how to use those pitches and let him learn the strategies of the pitch placement and speed changes. Just my 2cents. I coached for 15 years and almost never called a pitch. This is a learning environment, after all.

I go back and forth over this, to be honest. Sometimes I think they are capable of it (I know my son and I talk contantly about pitch selection and why you throw certain pitches at certain times) but then there are other times when I think they are having trouble just hitting the glove so why not take something off their plate in terms of mental energy.

The other thing is while my son and I get to spend a bunch of time talking about pitch selection, I don't get to spend that same time with the other pitchers due to practice restrictions. I will admit, however, that when things start going south I will go out to them and say "No more signs, just 4-seam fastballs to the mitt."

[RPatrino]

Rufus, you hit the nail on the head, particularly with very young pitchers. Coaches tend to 'over complicate' things at this level ( sometimes I think HS Varsity coaches do too).

Keep things super simple. Limit the number of different pitches you throw, learn to throw your fastball for consistant strikes in different places (low, high, outside, inside). Use a 2 seamer and a 4 seamer. Learn to throw a change-up before you try a curve. Try to learn a cut fastball or slider. Don't walk anyone, ever.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

Don't walk anyone, ever.

This follows from the old adage (variously credited to George Bamberger and Ray Miller):
Work fast, change speeds, throw strikes.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

There is nothing in any baseball rules code that prohibits a pitcher taking a signal from a coach or catcher while not in contact with the rubber, what is important is that the pitcher at least simulates taking a signal from the catcher while in contact with the rubber. As long as the pitcher is at least simulating taking a signal from the catcher then he has complied with the rules.

MTD, Sr.

[TussAgee11]

Rufus -

Your coaching style seems to be refreshing and a nice break from what typically happens in youth sports.

You know your players better than I do, but I have some coaching experience as well as catching experience, and now 4 seasons as an umpire ranging from 10 year olds to adult leagues.

Just remember, and I think you have a good grasp of this, that every moment can be a teaching tool. At some point F2 is going to have to learn to give signs, and it is going to get harder and harder to catch effectively if he doesn't know what pitch is coming. Then me, as the umpire, gets hit more, and then I get cranky

I would suggest involving your catcher in this someway. Also, effective pitching is repetition of everything, similar to a free throw. It might not be a bad habit to have your pitcher take a sign every time, even if it is going to be just fastballs that inning. This will help with repetition, and may avoid balks in the future when he gets older. Certainly will make him not have to think about one more thing, as it will become a habit.

These are my takes as somebody involved in youth baseball, not as an umpire or from a rules standpoint. But umpiring alot has allowed me to see lots of stuff, so I hope you find my advice somewhat worthwhile.

Like I said Coach, you know the situation better than any of us, so I'll let you be the final judge. Just remember, every moment something can be learned at the 11U level

Good luck!

(p.s. See, I can be nice to coaches )