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-   -   Runner attempts to advance during dead ball (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/43912-runner-attempts-advance-during-dead-ball.html)

UMP25 Mon Apr 28, 2008 07:49pm
I don't know what the FED book says, SA, which is why I haven't recommended any action either way in FEDlandia ball. My posts reflect what occurred in an NCAA game, which is the same as OBR in this.

bluezebra Mon Apr 28, 2008 09:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UMP25
I suppose if you're a frickin' Little League umpire, sure. But you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. If tossing guys for stuff like this gives you jollies, fine. I'd prefer to avoid the EJ and still take care of the situation, thereby avoiding a huge mess a trigger-happy EJ is likely to cause.
'Trigger-happy' my rosy red rump. It's unsportsmanlike at ANY level. Avoid the ejection because you have no cojones, but it's still a gross violation, no matter what YOU think. If you were the BU in this situation, and didn't have the guts to get rid of the runner and the coach, I would never work with you again. I want partners who punish situations like this. And think (if you can) about this. If you're the base ump, they just made a fool out of you.

Bob

SanDiegoSteve Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:44pm
SoCalBlue is no LL umpire, and he certainly would eject in this case. It was blatant unsportsmanlike conduct IMO, and I concurr with SoCal on this one.

UMP25 Tue Apr 29, 2008 09:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluezebra
'Trigger-happy' my rosy red rump. It's unsportsmanlike at ANY level. Avoid the ejection because you have no cojones, but it's still a gross violation, no matter what YOU think.
Son, don't ever tell me I don't have cojones. I haven't gotten where I've gotten by being timid.

Quote:
If you were the BU in this situation, and didn't have the guts to get rid of the runner and the coach, I would never work with you again.
Good, because I wouldn't want to work with someone who believes some big time ejection is the answer to everything or that mountains must be made out of mole hills. I handled it quite well, retained the respect of everyone involved, and avoided a bigger mess that two ejections would have caused. I have had my share of ejections over the years, and my first one this year might even have been classified as kind of quick, but in the OP's case, based simply on what he wrote, I wouldn't have ejected and would have still been respected.

Quote:
I want partners who punish situations like this.
Then go work in a court or prison.

Quote:
And think (if you can) about this. If you're the base ump, they just made a fool out of you.
Whatever you say from the comfort of your chair. In 30 years of umpiring I've never been made a fool and still command respect by my work ethic and performance.

UMP25 Tue Apr 29, 2008 09:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
SoCalBlue is no LL umpire, and he certainly would eject in this case. It was blatant unsportsmanlike conduct IMO, and I concurr with SoCal on this one.
"Blatant unsportsmanlike conduct," huh? There are far worse things in baseball that earn ejections than trying to be an @ss and not returning to a base. Umpiring in a black and white world, something more common of L.L. umpires or new guys, doesn't work well.

If a pitcher's got vaseline on him or takes the ball and is caught scratching it against his belt buckle, those are what I'd be more apt to classify as "blatant unsportsmanlike conduct"--far worse "cheating" than acting like a juvenile and not going back to a base after a foul ball.

rei Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPatrino
If no umpire notices this 'situation' then they don't deserve to be on the field. This is preventive umpiring at it's 'finest'. If you have to EJ on this situation because the crew didn't notice it, and let it happen, then I would be embarrased to be the crew working this game.
Amen!

UMP25 Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:55am
Preventative umpiring is where one avoids having to eject someone as much as possible and instead takes care of a potential problem in a manner that minimizes damage while still resolving the issue.

RPatrino Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:13pm
BlueZebra, if you want partners who 'punish' in this situation, then I suppose you find them. To each his own. My own personal take on this is that our job isn't to 'punish'. I've worked with these types of officials and personally I don't get much enjoyment out of those games. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

UMP25 Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:16pm
Can someone punish me?

Thank you, Sir. May I have another?

:D

bluezebra Tue Apr 29, 2008 01:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UMP25
Son, don't ever tell me I don't have cojones. I haven't gotten where I've gotten by being timid.



Good, because I wouldn't want to work with someone who believes some big time ejection is the answer to everything or that mountains must be made out of mole hills. I handled it quite well, retained the respect of everyone involved, and avoided a bigger mess that two ejections would have caused. I have had my share of ejections over the years, and my first one this year might even have been classified as kind of quick, but in the OP's case, based simply on what he wrote, I wouldn't have ejected and would have still been respected.



Then go work in a court or prison.



Whatever you say from the comfort of your chair. In 30 years of umpiring I've never been made a fool and still command respect by my work ethic and performance.
I had 44 years of umpiring. If someone pulled that stunt, and you didn't eject, you definitely were made a fool of. Just telling a coach and runner, "Don't do that", is not even a slap on the wrist. Cheating, and that's what it is, is cause for ejection.

"Son, don't ever tell me I don't have cojones. I haven't gotten where I've gotten by being timid."

Son? I probably started umpiring before you were born.


Bob

bigwes68 Tue Apr 29, 2008 02:04pm
I appreciate everyone's responses. This pretty much confirms what I thought -- there's no specific rule to deal with this situation, mainly because it's so unbelievably bush-league that it just doesn't happen.

Just for further clarification, this happened Sunday in a Division I game. U3 had already ejected one player from the home bench earlier in the game who literally had not said a word but just happened to be the biggest guy standing there when a few others had been chirping about a close call at third.

(Even though there was no EJ and the runner in question eventually scored, I think karma took care of the offending team; they ended up blowing a six-run lead in the bottom of the 9th to lose 10-9.)

ctblu40 Tue Apr 29, 2008 02:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UMP25
Then I can't wait to see the next time a guy gets beaned by the pitcher who is simply "sending a message" to a batter who showed him up in his previous bat home run. I'd bet you'd toss the pitcher in a heartbeat. The game takes care of itself at times.
Earth to UMP25... if you thought he threw at the batter on purpose and you don't step in, then you're not doing your job!

Sometimes as an umpire you need to step in and take care of business (I would probably run R2 in the OP)... it's not always popular, but it still needs to be done. Don't let the inmates run the asylum!

UMP25 Tue Apr 29, 2008 08:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluezebra
I had 44 years of umpiring. If someone pulled that stunt, and you didn't eject, you definitely were made a fool of.
OK, Smitty, whatever you say. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Quote:
Just telling a coach and runner, "Don't do that", is not even a slap on the wrist.
First, I didn't say those three words. What I said in my situation was sufficient enough to resolve the problem without causing a schithouse of a mess and with me retaining the respect of both sides.

Quote:
Cheating, and that's what it is, is cause for ejection.
When you next umpire on planet earth, perhaps you'll realize that players cheat all the time, and umpires don't always eject.

SAump Tue Apr 29, 2008 09:53pm
Boo to fixing it, let's rule
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwes68
Haven't posted in a long time because I'm not officiating this year, but I saw a play in a game today that intrigued me because I've never seen it before.

NCAA. R1, R2, 1 out. Home manager requests time, comes to plate umpire to make what ends up being a triple switch (not really relevant to play, but also rare). While all this is going on and while new F1 is taking warmup tosses, R2 comes over to talk to third base coach, but nonchalantly stands on third while doing it. Play resumes, R2 remains on third. Before a pitch is thrown, home manager comes out to point out that runner is out of position, also has a few choice words for visiting manager (needless to say, R2 would have definitely got one in his ear if he had come up again; this was the 8th inning). Umpires make R2 return to 2B, play continues without further incident.

Correct ruling? What happens if a pitch is thrown or if F1 steps off and throws to 3B (or 2B)? Should runner be ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct (I believe NCAA softball has a rule regarding this very situation, don't know if baseball has a similar rule).

(Home manager told me after the game that he asked all three umpires what the proper ruling was and that he got three different answers.)
Somehow, fixing it seems to fall short, while an ejection may be over the top.

If the defense correctly points to a baserunning infraction, why not allow a proper appeal and declare R2(3) out, using a justification similar to BOO?

If a pitch is thrown, then why not on appeal negate any resulting action {cancel run} and maybe add an out {R3}, using a justification similar to illegal slide or MC or missed base?

Now if a 2nd pitch is made, then that may finally legalize R3's SB and may allow a run by the offense.

TussAgee11 Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:12pm
Ump25 - if I was U3 here I would have done my preventative umpiring and stepped in getting the runner back to second as the apposing coach made his way back into his dugout.

Had I not realized it because I was scoping out the hot mom on the fence, and I missed my preventative umpiring, my left arm is going to get a workout. No ifs ands or butts.

Would I be embarrassed I didn't do my job in the first place? Yes.

Does that mean everybody gets off the hook? No.

And you suggesting that you wouldn't toss a pitcher who you thought intentionally hit a batter is just ludicrous. Grow a pair and do your job. Who cares what $hithouse it starts. Its your job! If we can do our job and avoid one, than fine. But if in doing our job we piss some off, part of the territory. We shouldn't shy away from a good ole fashion circus if necessary.


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