Runner attempts to advance during dead ball
 

Haven't posted in a long time because I'm not officiating this year, but I saw a play in a game today that intrigued me because I've never seen it before.

NCAA. R1, R2, 1 out. Home manager requests time, comes to plate umpire to make what ends up being a triple switch (not really relevant to play, but also rare). While all this is going on and while new F1 is taking warmup tosses, R2 comes over to talk to third base coach, but nonchalantly stands on third while doing it. Play resumes, R2 remains on third. Before a pitch is thrown, home manager comes out to point out that runner is out of position, also has a few choice words for visiting manager (needless to say, R2 would have definitely got one in his ear if he had come up again; this was the 8th inning). Umpires make R2 return to 2B, play continues without further incident.

Correct ruling? What happens if a pitch is thrown or if F1 steps off and throws to 3B (or 2B)? Should runner be ejected for unsportsmanlike conduct (I believe NCAA softball has a rule regarding this very situation, don't know if baseball has a similar rule).

(Home manager told me after the game that he asked all three umpires what the proper ruling was and that he got three different answers.)

R2 most defiantly would NOT have got one in his ear because he would no longer be in the game...

IMO Proper ruling:

1. Need new R2 and 3B coach. Should HC even think of whining he would be gone too. I have no patience for this type of BS, esp at the college level.

2. New R2, new 3B coach. No other changes - no place in the rules to get an out here.

Q - Was U3 sleeping or what? He only has two jobs here - help PU keep track of the number of warm up pitches (If PU is occupied with other things) and make sure base runner(s) return to the proper base.

You'd better be able to justify ejecting these two under NCAA and OBR (I don't do FED ball so won't comment on that). Is what R2 did lame? Probably. But I doubt I'd outright eject R2 or the coach. I try to avoid EJs as much as possible. I'd most likely call time and tell R2 in a somewhat scolding but not irate tone something like, "All right, get back to second where you belong...".

Justification? How about FLAGRANT UNSPORTSMANLIKE CONDUCT. You cheat, you're history.

Bob

I agree with Ump25 - as bushleague as it is, I would just send the runner back to second and probably get in his grill a little bit. I do make note of the base runners during pitching changes because the runners may switch bases (ie have the faster runner go to second base and the slower runner go to first base). As a base umpire, after I go get the relief pitcher out of the bull pen, I flash the number of the incoming pitcher to my plate umpire and then make a mental note of what runners on where on the bases. If I'm really feeling motivated, I may even keep track of the warm up pitches in case my partners busy recording the change or talking with the coach. If that's the case, I'll just flash the number four to my partner so he know's four warm up pitches have been already thrown and/or the relief pitcher has four more left. Just goes to show that you never stop umpiring, even when there's nothing going on ;)

I agree with the first part, but take it to mean that during a game there's always something going on for the attentive.

I'm not (yet) NCAA, but I can't imagine that NCAA would condone this kind of thing. No one plausibly claims this was an accident, which means that it's blatant cheating. It certainly gets an EJ in FED.

So some of you would EJ a player for calling you horseshït, but not for this?

Any umpire who doesn't EJ 3rd base coach and R2 doesn't have a backbone in my opinion.

I try to stay away from EJ's too, but sometimes you have to take care of business. Both those participants CHEATED. That needs to be penalized more than just fixing what they tried to cheat with.

And as PU, I'm cutting off defensive manager. "Skip, I'll take care of it, I need you back to your dugout so I can though, and I can't have you yelling across the field at him. Let me do that for you".

You leave R2 in the game and he's getting the next one in his ear. Then we have a war. You still not going to eject anyone then?

Throw these clowns out.

Let me add this. All of what I just said applies if no umpire noticed the situation.

If I was U3 I'm stepping in as the pitcher is ready and saying "ok, back to second".

Nobody knows what they tried to do and everyone gets to stay. Heck, I'd probably just assume there were some last second instructions.

But if I KNEW that they were trying to cheat, they'd be gone. But I, ideally, wouldn't let it get to the point where I could know that.

My tossin' finger would get some good work on this play!

Good bye R2 and most likely 3B coach

at many levels, the coach knows darn well what they're doing...it's like the people who ask for a warning for not coming to a "stop" as the runner gets thrown out at 2B...the pitcher knew darn well what he was doing.

If no umpire notices this 'situation' then they don't deserve to be on the field. This is preventive umpiring at it's 'finest'. If you have to EJ on this situation because the crew didn't notice it, and let it happen, then I would be embarrased to be the crew working this game.

Agree 100%. Base umpire(s) sleeping here or what? There should be no excuse for this happening!

However, if it did happen then I'm going to have an ejection or three ...

I suppose if you're a frickin' Little League umpire, sure. But you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. If tossing guys for stuff like this gives you jollies, fine. I'd prefer to avoid the EJ and still take care of the situation, thereby avoiding a huge mess a trigger-happy EJ is likely to cause.

Wow. The naivete in this thread is quite amazing. So you're gonna eject people for cheating, huh? (Earth to Tuss: Players often cheat all the time and get away with it.) Then I can't wait to see the next time a guy gets beaned by the pitcher who is simply "sending a message" to a batter who showed him up in his previous bat home run. I'd bet you'd toss the pitcher in a heartbeat. The game takes care of itself at times.

I'll share this truth with y'all: I actually had a runner do what is stated in this thread. The runner on a foul advanced to the next base and stayed there. The third base coach even said, loud enough for me to hear, "Just stay here."

I was on the bases when my partner was about to point the ball back into play. I put my hands up and said, "Hold on!" As I looked at R2 standing on third, with a stern look I yelled toward him, "Very funny. Now get back to second where you belong."

Both the runner and the coach knew I wasn't happy. I'm sure they probably even realized I could have ejected them, but I didn't. And I haven't lost one ounce of respect since then.

Warning or Ejection Merited?
 

Does the rulebook suggest a penalty be involked in this case? A player warning/ejection may be merited for this unsportsmanlike act, under rule 3-3g-4, along with bench restriction or ejection of coaches. Yet our solution may be as simple as fix it and move on. Need further guidance from someone w/ more info/experience to determine the actual nature of this offense.

Posted older link from 2005 baseball side of website below. 1/2 call for DP, 1/2 call to fix it.
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...runners+switch
Posted similar link from 2004 softball side of website below. Calls for DP.
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...+switch+places
Posted older link from 2003 softball side of website below. Calls for DP and provides {2003} FED softball case ruling, situation 10.
http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...runners+switch
Note all 3 links above involve 2 runners switching bases, not one advancing a base, during a dead ball.

I don't know what the FED book says, SA, which is why I haven't recommended any action either way in FEDlandia ball. My posts reflect what occurred in an NCAA game, which is the same as OBR in this.

'Trigger-happy' my rosy red rump. It's unsportsmanlike at ANY level. Avoid the ejection because you have no cojones, but it's still a gross violation, no matter what YOU think. If you were the BU in this situation, and didn't have the guts to get rid of the runner and the coach, I would never work with you again. I want partners who punish situations like this. And think (if you can) about this. If you're the base ump, they just made a fool out of you.

Bob

SoCalBlue is no LL umpire, and he certainly would eject in this case. It was blatant unsportsmanlike conduct IMO, and I concurr with SoCal on this one.

Son, don't ever tell me I don't have cojones. I haven't gotten where I've gotten by being timid.

Good, because I wouldn't want to work with someone who believes some big time ejection is the answer to everything or that mountains must be made out of mole hills. I handled it quite well, retained the respect of everyone involved, and avoided a bigger mess that two ejections would have caused. I have had my share of ejections over the years, and my first one this year might even have been classified as kind of quick, but in the OP's case, based simply on what he wrote, I wouldn't have ejected and would have still been respected.

Then go work in a court or prison.

Whatever you say from the comfort of your chair. In 30 years of umpiring I've never been made a fool and still command respect by my work ethic and performance.

"Blatant unsportsmanlike conduct," huh? There are far worse things in baseball that earn ejections than trying to be an @ss and not returning to a base. Umpiring in a black and white world, something more common of L.L. umpires or new guys, doesn't work well.

If a pitcher's got vaseline on him or takes the ball and is caught scratching it against his belt buckle, those are what I'd be more apt to classify as "blatant unsportsmanlike conduct"--far worse "cheating" than acting like a juvenile and not going back to a base after a foul ball.

Amen!

Preventative umpiring is where one avoids having to eject someone as much as possible and instead takes care of a potential problem in a manner that minimizes damage while still resolving the issue.

BlueZebra, if you want partners who 'punish' in this situation, then I suppose you find them. To each his own. My own personal take on this is that our job isn't to 'punish'. I've worked with these types of officials and personally I don't get much enjoyment out of those games. Just my 2 cents on the matter.

Can someone punish me?

Thank you, Sir. May I have another?

:D

I had 44 years of umpiring. If someone pulled that stunt, and you didn't eject, you definitely were made a fool of. Just telling a coach and runner, "Don't do that", is not even a slap on the wrist. Cheating, and that's what it is, is cause for ejection.

"Son, don't ever tell me I don't have cojones. I haven't gotten where I've gotten by being timid."

Son? I probably started umpiring before you were born.


Bob

I appreciate everyone's responses. This pretty much confirms what I thought -- there's no specific rule to deal with this situation, mainly because it's so unbelievably bush-league that it just doesn't happen.

Just for further clarification, this happened Sunday in a Division I game. U3 had already ejected one player from the home bench earlier in the game who literally had not said a word but just happened to be the biggest guy standing there when a few others had been chirping about a close call at third.

(Even though there was no EJ and the runner in question eventually scored, I think karma took care of the offending team; they ended up blowing a six-run lead in the bottom of the 9th to lose 10-9.)

Earth to UMP25... if you thought he threw at the batter on purpose and you don't step in, then you're not doing your job!

Sometimes as an umpire you need to step in and take care of business (I would probably run R2 in the OP)... it's not always popular, but it still needs to be done. Don't let the inmates run the asylum!

OK, Smitty, whatever you say. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

First, I didn't say those three words. What I said in my situation was sufficient enough to resolve the problem without causing a schithouse of a mess and with me retaining the respect of both sides.

When you next umpire on planet earth, perhaps you'll realize that players cheat all the time, and umpires don't always eject.

Boo to fixing it, let's rule
 

Somehow, fixing it seems to fall short, while an ejection may be over the top.

If the defense correctly points to a baserunning infraction, why not allow a proper appeal and declare R2(3) out, using a justification similar to BOO?

If a pitch is thrown, then why not on appeal negate any resulting action {cancel run} and maybe add an out {R3}, using a justification similar to illegal slide or MC or missed base?

Now if a 2nd pitch is made, then that may finally legalize R3's SB and may allow a run by the offense.

Ump25 - if I was U3 here I would have done my preventative umpiring and stepped in getting the runner back to second as the apposing coach made his way back into his dugout.

Had I not realized it because I was scoping out the hot mom on the fence, and I missed my preventative umpiring, my left arm is going to get a workout. No ifs ands or butts.

Would I be embarrassed I didn't do my job in the first place? Yes.

Does that mean everybody gets off the hook? No.

And you suggesting that you wouldn't toss a pitcher who you thought intentionally hit a batter is just ludicrous. Grow a pair and do your job. Who cares what $hithouse it starts. Its your job! If we can do our job and avoid one, than fine. But if in doing our job we piss some off, part of the territory. We shouldn't shy away from a good ole fashion circus if necessary.

Lets get this straight.

We want to eject players at this level because of our lack of competence.

If your even re-starting the game without making sure the runners are in their proper position, you probably should eject yourself and hand back your schedule because you don't belong at the level to begin with.

AWARENESS

Anyone can toss people from ballgames wether its your first or last game.

Good officials understand when to.

Puh-leeze! I've tossed my share of pitchers over the years. I'm known as an umpire who doesn't tolerate bullschit. I'm also one who understands the game takes care of itself. If I see a runner sliding in with spikes high, I pretty much know that odds are greater said runner is going to hear a little chin music next time up.

I think we'll just have to A2D on this.