why is this so confusing to so many umpires?

[CajunNewBlue]

Had a discussion during a umpire meeting with umpires from various associations (nothing like a meeting of the minds....lol) and this scenario was presented.
2-2 count on the batter (outs and runners dont matter) pitch is delivered legally and batter swings at it and it clearly hits the batters hands and NOT the bat... ball rolls fair. whats the call?
Now, being a softball umpire this is "clearly" spelled out in the rule book that this is a dead ball strike and being the third strike, batter is out. of course my answer brought up (surprisingly) considerable debate.
So I go home, break out the OBR, FED and PONY rule books and case plays and I cannot for the life of me find anything that spells this out as they do in the FED softball rulebook.
Now, I know common sense should dictate that it doesnt matter where the ball falls (fair/foul) as its a dead ball once it strikes the batter and its swung at... so its a strike.
So any rule/case play reference's would be greatly appreciated.

[dash_riprock]

FED 7-2-1 A strike is charged to the batter when: (b) a pitch is struck at and missed (even if the pitch touches the batter).

OBR 2.00 A strike is a legal pitch when so called by the umpire which: (e) touches the batter as he strikes at it.

[greymule]

The play you describe is a dead ball strike in every code on earth, including that of the Yemeni Slayer-of-the-Infidel Federation (YSIF).

However, sometimes the contact has an obvious metallic sound, but the batter also reacts in pain. You have to determine whether the ball hit hands (dead ball strike) or metal (batted ball) first. In those cases, if the ball travels like a batted ball, I usually consider it such.

[LakeErieUmp]

Notwithstanding the metallic sound, the squealing in pain of the batter should provide a hint.

[Rich Ives]

OBR

What Dash said plus:

5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when --

(a) A pitched ball touches a batter, or his clothing, while in his legal batting position; runners, if forced, advance;

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

OBR

What Dash said plus:

5.09 The ball becomes dead and runners advance one base, or return to their bases, without liability to be put out, when --

(a) A pitched ball touches a batter, or his clothing, while in his legal batting position; runners, if forced, advance;

That shows the OP's a dead ball strike?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by mbyron

That shows the OP's a dead ball strike? C'mon Rich, keep up.

Dash posted the 2.00 rule that says it's a strike. My post has the rule that says it's a dead ball.

[Rita C]

There is also the following from 6.08(b)

6.08 The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out (provided he advances to and touches first base) when_

(b) He is touched by a pitched ball which he is not attempting to hit

APPROVED RULING: When the batter is touched by a pitched ball which does not entitle him to first base, the ball is dead and no runner may advance.

Taken together with all the others, it is clear.

Rita

[Rita C]

Originally Posted by greymule

The play you describe is a dead ball strike in every code on earth, including that of the Yemeni Slayer-of-the-Infidel Federation (YSIF).

However, sometimes the contact has an obvious metallic sound, but the batter also reacts in pain. You have to determine whether the ball hit hands (dead ball strike) or metal (batted ball) first. In those cases, if the ball travels like a batted ball, I usually consider it such.

If I were able to differentiate whether it hit the metal first and then the hand, I would have a foul ball, never fair.

So your response should either be hit the hands (dead ball strike) or metal (batted ball but foul) first.

Rita

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Rita C

If I were able to differentiate whether it hit the metal first and then the hand, I would have a foul ball, never fair.

So your response should either be hit the hands (dead ball strike) or metal (batted ball but foul) first.

Rita

Right, and no special rule is required for the foul ball call. It's a batted ball that first hits an object (the batter's hand) in foul territory.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Right, and no special rule is required for the foul ball call. It's a batted ball that first hits an object (the batter's hand) in foul territory.

Really? What if the ball was over the plate when it made contact with the bat? If the ball hits the bat first and then the hands, it's not automatically a foul ball, unless you're playing Calvin Ball. It's irrelevant that it subsequently happened to touch the batter's hands. The batters hands are not considered under Rule 2:00 FOUL BALL to be an object in foul territory, or a player or umpire.

If I'm the manager, and my batter hits the ball with the metal (or wood) part of the bat, and it is in fair territory, and you call it foul, I going to be in your face arguing. It's either a dead-ball strike if it hits his hands first, or a fair or foul ball depending on where the ball settles or is touched by a fielder if it hits the bat first.

[t-rex]

I think you meant, that if you are the manager, and all your runners arrive at their bases safely, then you want the ball to be fair. Otherwise, I think you would be happy with the foul ball.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Really? What if the ball was over the plate when it made contact with the bat? If the ball hits the bat first and then the hands, it's not automatically a foul ball, unless you're playing Calvin Ball. It's irrelevant that it subsequently happened to touch the batter's hands. The batters hands are not considered under Rule 2:00 FOUL BALL to be an object in foul territory, or a player or umpire.

If I'm the manager, and my batter hits the ball with the metal (or wood) part of the bat, and it is in fair territory, and you call it foul, I going to be in your face arguing. It's either a dead-ball strike if it hits his hands first, or a fair or foul ball depending on where the ball settles or is touched by a fielder if it hits the bat first.

Steve,

I know you've been "away" for a while, but come on. It's a foul ball. What, you going to call the batter out for interference under 7.09(k)? Have fun with that.

JM

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Steve,

I know you've been "away" for a while, but come on. It's a foul ball. What, you going to call the batter out for interference under 7.09(k)? Have fun with that.

JM

No, I'm not calling interference at all. The ball hit the bat, not the batter's hands. It may have stung a whole bunch, or pinched the hand, but I'm not good enough to tell that it hit anything but the bat. If it clearly hit the hands first, it's a dead ball. If not, I play on. If the ball rolls foul, I call it foul.

I see a lot of balls hit near the handle of the bat that hit the bat and then catch a little bit of finger too. I've seen these balls that ended up in fair territory called fair. Maybe I'm not seeing this like others are seeing it. I'm talking about a possible near-simultaneous hit of both ball and finger, with the bat being hit just prior to maybe nicking a finger. No INT, no HBP, just a ball hitting the bat.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by t-rex

I think you meant, that if you are the manager, and all your runners arrive at their bases safely, then you want the ball to be fair. Otherwise, I think you would be happy with the foul ball.

Yes, pretty much. I would argue if the result would end in my favor, of course. If it ended up as a triple play I would be happy with the foul call.