Balk or not?

[grogdog]

Our team played in a tourney recently, supposedly played under High School rules (the ump wasn't sure, lol) but it probably doesn't matter. The pitcher is going to his windup. He's taking signs with his hands together. standing in front of the rubber. Neither heel is actually touching the rubber as he starts his windup he moves his pivot foot in to the front of the rubber. Now he did this all the time when no runners are on but we never got the bases loaded on him to see if he would go to his windup and do it again. I'm pretty sure this is not a legal stance and I did say something to our coach but he never said anything to the ump. SO, my questions are is it legal? Is it an illegal pitch with no runners? A balk with runners on (bases loaded)? On a side note, the opposing coach was seen several times standing behind our 3rd base coach, actually closer to the line than our coach was. I (just a fan this year) said something to the ump about it and he said "I don't know what he's doing" and played on. The plate ump called a good game though but I thought he should have yelled at that coach to get in the dugout but I guess if our coach doesn't complain ( he should have) it's a moot point. Thanks!

[bob jenkins]

1) It's the coaches' / tourney director's job to specify the rules.

2) If there was only one ump, then it's impossible to see whether the feet are against the rubber. Close enought is close enough.

3) If you have been an ump and are now just a fan, you should know that a fan's appropriate role includes yelling "go team" and does not include talking to the umpire.

[bossman72]

...and most likely the mound had a big ol' hole in front of the rubber, so you really can't expect the pitcher to be "on" the rubber if that's the case.

[grogdog]

The mound had the "normal" hole in front of the rubber. I watched 6 games and nobody else was standing in front of the rubber so I'd expect everyone to stand "on" the rubber and not a foot closer to the plate. There were 2 umps, sorry, I should have specified that.
As for talking to the umpire. I asked him about what rules we are following 1/2 hr prior to the game, away from the field during a general conversation. And I think an umpire would or should know what rules they are following, don't you? As for talking during the game, he walked over to us several times during timeouts or between innings. I was not barking at him during the game because I do know better. The coach should have brought it up.

[jdmara]

Was the pitcher a foot off of the rubber? Unfortunately I do not have my rule books in my back pocket 24/7 (as I know all umpires should) but, I believe, the rule book leaves a little flexibility for the pivot foot to be actually touching the rubber. If the pitcher is displaced by a half inch because of "the hole", I wouldn't worry about it as an umpire. If he is a foot off of the rubber by a foot, then I have a problem as an umpire. The BU should have addressed that problem a long time ago as he has the best angle to see it.

-Josh

[CO ump]

Originally Posted by grogdog

The mound had the "normal" hole in front of the rubber. I watched 6 games and nobody else was standing in front of the rubber so I'd expect everyone to stand "on" the rubber and not a foot closer to the plate. There were 2 umps, sorry, I should have specified that.
As for talking to the umpire. I asked him about what rules we are following 1/2 hr prior to the game, away from the field during a general conversation. And I think an umpire would or should know what rules they are following, don't you? As for talking during the game, he walked over to us several times during timeouts or between innings. I was not barking at him during the game because I do know better. The coach should have brought it up.

If F1 was 12" in front of the rubber, which is extreme, I'd think your coach would have been bringing this to the attention of the umps and it seems highly unlikely they would ignore the heads up and even more unlikely they wouldn't have caught it to start with. So perhaps a "foot" may be a bit of an exaggeration.
But yes, by rule the foot must be in contact. Depending on mound conditions the letter of the law is sometimes overlooked. HTBT.


Regarding rule sets:

You talked to the ump 1/2 hour before the game, perhaps by game time he had clarified with TD which rules were being used.

Let me say a few things in a very practical manner regarding rule sets and daddy ball.

There are very few rules that matter at this level that differ between Fed and OBR.

1. FPSR. Fed has it OBR doesn't. I've never been at an kids OBR tourney yet that didn't add it in to their local rules.
Result no issue.

2. Balk Fed kills it. OBR delays if pitch is thrown.
How often is a balk called and kids continue the pitch? If he does how often does the batter stay engaged and swing?
If the ump does call it according to the wrong rule set how many daddy coaches have a clue?
You'll have to watch a lot more than 7 games to find a balk called by wrong rule set to actually make a practical difference.

3. Catch and carry into DBT. Fed kills it and awards bases. OBR allows it and player can throw live ball back into LBT. I don't think I've ever had a 13U kid catch and carry into DBT.

4. Obstruction. There are differences, but I'll bet 99% of the umpires doing daddy ball don't know the finer points of OBR obstruction and therefore are awarding according to FED regardless of rule set

Bottom line-In the real world of 13U daddy ball
Does it really matter?

[grogdog]

Thanks for the replies. By a foot I mean the normal position of the toes on a rubber in the Windup position versus where this player was standing in the windup position in front of the rubber. So now he's in front of the rubber facing a batter in the windup with his toes pointing towards the batter and his heels NOT touching any part of the rubber. All other pitchers started on the rubber then moved the foot in to the customary hole. I agree it's a HTBT but I've never seen it before and I've seen mounds that have a crater in front of the rubber.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by grogdog

Thanks for the replies. By a foot I mean the normal position of the toes on a rubber in the Windup position versus where this player was standing in the windup position in front of the rubber. So now he's in front of the rubber facing a batter in the windup with his toes pointing towards the batter and his heels NOT touching any part of the rubber. All other pitchers started on the rubber then moved the foot in to the customary hole. I agree it's a HTBT but I've never seen it before and I've seen mounds that have a crater in front of the rubber.

If the heels were touching the front of the rubber, then the position was legal (by rule). If the heels would have been touching the rubber, but for the "normal hole in front of the rubber" then the position is likely to be ruled legal (in practice). Especially if F1 moves to properly touch the rubber during delivery, it's a nit I'm not going to pick during a game -- F1 has gained no advantage in this (not that advantage is the only reason to enforce all rules).