Is there a Dr. in da house

[Rich]

Originally Posted by canadaump6

Another reason they should just use OBR.

This comment is ignorant. The FED rules are the most explicitly written and include safety measures because they were written to be used by children.

That said, I don't think the rule was applied correctly based on the description given by the OP unless the trainer is lying when he said that the batter wasn't unconscious or anything.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

This comment is ignorant. The FED rules are the most explicitly written and include safety measures because they were written to be used by children.

That said, I don't think the rule was applied correctly based on the description given by the OP unless the trainer is lying when he said that the batter wasn't unconscious or anything.

I agree, Rich. The question wasn't "what is the right ruling", but "how do you responde when someopne asks about a previous game." Since "we" (the OP) weren't there, I just give the rule and try not to make a judgment about what really happened.

For some reason, too many individuals think the umpires in the next game are the proper channel in which to lodge a complaint.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree, Rich. The question wasn't "what is the right ruling", but "how do you responde when someopne asks about a previous game." Since "we" (the OP) weren't there, I just give the rule and try not to make a judgment about what really happened.

For some reason, too many individuals think the umpires in the next game are the proper channel in which to lodge a complaint.

Obviously. I would've simply said, "I wasn't here. Is the kid OK?" and escaped if that didn't change the subject.

[Hartee14]

I would have said the same thing. The ATC would then have to take that up with the powers to be.

But, my 2 cents. We are umpires. At the end of the day, whether we are doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc, when we are on the field, WE ARE UMPIRES. WE ARE NOT DOCTORS, ATHLETIC TRAINERS, etc. If you have a Certified Athletic Trainer at the game, you need to let them make the decisions. Who am I to tell an ATC that the player who just got hit should not return to the game? That is not my call. That is his/her call. That is what they get paid for. Unless you see the athlete laying there unconscious and they have to do CPR or mouth to mouth breathing, there is no reason not to let them return. I think the umpire made the wrong call.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

I would have said the same thing. The ATC would then have to take that up with the powers to be.

But, my 2 cents. We are umpires. At the end of the day, whether we are doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc, when we are on the field, WE ARE UMPIRES. WE ARE NOT DOCTORS, ATHLETIC TRAINERS, etc. If you have a Certified Athletic Trainer at the game, you need to let them make the decisions. Who am I to tell an ATC that the player who just got hit should not return to the game? That is not my call. That is his/her call. That is what they get paid for. Unless you see the athlete laying there unconscious and they have to do CPR or mouth to mouth breathing, there is no reason not to let them return. I think the umpire made the wrong call.

An athletic trainer is not an MD or DO. If the player was apparently unconscious, even for an instant, that player doesn't return without a PHYSICIAN'S WRITTEN authorization.

[Hartee14]

I agree with you that an Athletic Trainer is not an MD or DO. But, they do have to work under the direction of an MD or DO. So, trust me, they know what they are doing. Athletic Trainer's have to go through 4 years of college and then pass a National Board test. My point being, as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious, it is a medical professional. In this case, the medical professional is the Athletic Trainer. This is another case of an official thinking they are more important then they really are.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

I agree with you that an Athletic Trainer is not an MD or DO. But, they do have to work under the direction of an MD or DO. So, trust me, they know what they are doing. Athletic Trainer's have to go through 4 years of college and then pass a National Board test. My point being, as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious, it is a medical professional. In this case, the medical professional is the Athletic Trainer. This is another case of an official thinking they are more important then they really are.

You fail to understand. It is a requirement that written authorization from a doctor (from what I've heard some states require this on letterhead) is required to allow a player to return when the player appeared to lose consciousness TO THE OFFICIAL. The medical trainer is irrelevant in this process and will continue to be until the NFHS recognizes that person in the rule, same as they recognize an MD or DO. They won't, because the standard of training is much higher for an MD and DO and there are more stringent licensing requirements.

Now, if the trainer is an MD or DO, then that person can write me up authorization taking responsibility and I'll allow the player to return.

This is another case of an official doing what is expected of him and, like it or not, I am the ultimate authority of whether someone returns to the game. The trainer can go pound sand if he doesn't like it.

Welcome to the board, BTW.

[jicecone]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

I agree with you that an Athletic Trainer is not an MD or DO. But, they do have to work under the direction of an MD or DO. So, trust me, they know what they are doing. Athletic Trainer's have to go through 4 years of college and then pass a National Board test. My point being, as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious, it is a medical professional. In this case, the medical professional is the Athletic Trainer. This is another case of an official thinking they are more important then they really are.

No its actually another case of someone spouting off, that has never been involved in a lawsuite.

I hope your insurance coverage is as large as your sympathy for the Trainer.
A good lawyer will make swisscheese out of your argument.

Mr. Umpire, "Are we to understand, that "YOU" as the head official for this athletic contest in question, knowingly allowed a previously seriously injured player return to the game, and was permanently crippled when he was again hit by another pitch, without a docters written approval?

Yes or NO?

I certainly hope you carry a lot of insurance!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

... as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious...

Actually, according to the NFHS baseball rules, it is your job. If there is even the smallest of hints that the player has suffered LOC, he's done for the day until I get the proper written autorization.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

I agree with you that an Athletic Trainer is not an MD or DO. But, they do have to work under the direction of an MD or DO. So, trust me, they know what they are doing. Athletic Trainer's have to go through 4 years of college and then pass a National Board test. My point being, as an umpire, it is not my job to tell whether the player was unconscious, it is a medical professional. In this case, the medical professional is the Athletic Trainer. This is another case of an official thinking they are more important then they really are.

No, it's just a case of following the rules. If the player was rendered (apparently) unconscious, the rules say the Athletic Trainer's opinion isn't good enough. The umpire isn't making that decision, someone else did. The umpire decides if the player was unconscious. The doctor decides if he returns.

[PeteBooth]

I totally disagree

This has nothing to do with an official thinking they are more important then the game. It is the case of an official KNOWING and FOLLOWING the rules.

Regardless of what you think the rules DO NOT say Athletic Trainer. They say from a physician (MD/DO).

This is an amateur baseball game and the team "can live' without this player for the remainder of the game.

Remember it's a GAME

Pete Booth

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

Unless you see the athlete laying there unconscious and they have to do CPR or mouth to mouth breathing, there is no reason not to let them return.

I'm a basketball and football ref, not a baseball umpire, but I check things out over here from time to time. That said, the rule is written the same in basketball and baseball at the Fed level.

Being unconscious, per the rules, is the determination of the game official - not anyone else. If there is any hint of LOC, I'm calling the player unconscious. Your individual judgment may differ, but PLEASE do not think that someone needs airway support or CPR in order to be unconscious. In most cases where someone loses consciousness, they are still breathing on their own!

[jdmara]

No way would I ever allow an athlete participate after an injury to the head. I have had head injuries and it's not worth the risk

[Rich]

Originally Posted by jdmara

No way would I ever allow an athlete participate after an injury to the head. I have had head injuries and it's not worth the risk

You mean after an injury that rendered the athlete (apparently) unconscious, right?

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Hartee14

I would have said the same thing. The ATC would then have to take that up with the powers to be.

The fact of the matter is I hope this hardly ever happens to anyone because it is one of those situations where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Welcome. Coach, administration, or police officials may understand how the UIC felt too. No one here saw the blow, nor the batter's reactions afterward. The UIC was w/in 6 feet away. Perhaps, it provided him with a more accurate assessment or it may have clouded his best judgment.

Perhaps F2 was an impt. link to victory and this ATC was "too-close" to the action. I think you felt strongly enough for the ATC that you have given him a proper voice. At my school, our ATC is "Doc" and "we" send kids w/ injuries to see him. This guy practically lives at the school and spends as much time there as the principals. He is the first line of response to any athletic injuries needing emergency treatment. I doubt I have ever seen an actual physician treat an injury during my time there. Perhaps this ATC was right, but what happens next, couldn't he just let it go? The ATC was still "ventilating" about it.

If anything, this event was an eye-opener into the type of responsibility placed on our shoulders. Thanks for the comments. Perhaps, those of us lacking experience with either the rule, or the "people" skills to handle something of this magnitude may take notice here. It boils down to possible LOC or not, and then seperate verdicts from 2 very reliable witnesses.

Have a great season.