FED

[TxUmp]

Situation - 2 out, bases loaded. Batter hits safely. R1 misses 2nd and is tagged out before reaching 3rd. How many runs score? Is this an "accidental" appeal of his missing 2nd (force out) that would cancel any runs scored? Would you call it even if that would be the "correct" call?

[SamNVa]

If you are talking FED, it is my understanding that "accidental" appeals are allowed if the base missed was the one that the runner was forced to. Since the appeal out is a force out for the 3rd out, no runs would score.

In OBR, there are no "accidental" appeals, although if a valid appeal was made on the runner missing 2nd, then again, no runs would score.

SamC

[rafranck17]

The term "accidental appeal" doesn't appear in my rule book.
Under the 2002 Federation rules, a missed base or leaving too soon must be appealed. Unless the player tagging R1 verbally says "he missed second" while making the tag, then you have to treat that as a tag out and not an appeal of the missed base, thus, any runs scored on the play would count. The defensive team could make an appeal (even after the third out) any time before all infielders and the pitcher have left fair territory. At that point, you would call the runner out on appeal and take the runs off the board.

The only time I would assume that an appeal is being made without a defensive player or coach verbally stating so is when a runner obviously left too soon on a fly ball and is attempting to return to the base.

[Patrick Szalapski]

Check those interpretations again, rafranck. It's not obvious from the rule itself, but "accidental appeals" are legal when the out in question is a force out/BR missing first.

This is directly from http://www.nfhs.org/sports/baseball_interp.htm .

(FED 2002 clarification) SITUATION 19: With a runner on first base, the batter doubles to left center. As the runner from first advances, he misses second base. With the ball still live, the third baseman tags the runner standing on third base, not knowing the runner missed second base. RULING: Since the missed base was a forced base for the runner, the runner will be declared out on a force play even though the defense did not knowingly appeal the missed base. (2-24-1, 2-29-3, 8-2-7)

Note: In OBR, this is not a legal appeal--all appeals must be intentional.

Would I call it that way? Yes, but it would be easy not to do so, eh?

P-Sz

[Roger Greene]

Richard,

Go to your Fed Case Book and read play 8.2.2E, or to the NHFS web site and read Situation 19.

I will quote from the NHFS web site in the play (Sit. 19) in which R1 misses second and the defense tags him while he is in contact with 3rd base, not knowing he missed 2nd. "RULING: Since the missed base was a forced base for the runner, the runner will be declared out on a force play even though the defense did not knowingly appeal the missed base. (2-24-1,2-29-3,8-2-7)"

You are correct that the 'Book' doesn't use the words "accidental appeal", but then neither does the OBR book use the terms relaxed and unrelaxed in refering to appeals.

In Fed ball if a force play or the batter runner at first base is involved, the defense may tag the base or the runner if the runner has missed the base and advanced beyond it. They will be granted the out even if the defense is unaware of the missed base and they do not make any appeal. The only way to describe this appeal is to call it what it is, an accidental appeal.

On any non force play, the appeal must be unmistakable, as you describe in your post.

As to the original question posted "Would you call it?" I certainly will. Then I may be required to restrict the offensive coach to the dugout since the rule has not been explained very well in any of the clinics I have attended or heard of.

Roger Greene

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by rafranck17


The term "accidental appeal" doesn't appear in my rule book.
Under the 2002 Federation rules, a missed base or leaving too soon must be appealed. Unless the player tagging R1 verbally says "he missed second" while making the tag, then you have to treat that as a tag out and not an appeal of the missed base, thus, any runs scored on the play would count. The defensive team could make an appeal (even after the third out) any time before all infielders and the pitcher have left fair territory. At that point, you would call the runner out on appeal and take the runs off the board.

The accidental appeal as others have stated is accepted in FED, concerning Force Plays and this particular aspect of the appeal rule was the same last year as well. The accidental appeal hasn't changed.

Ie; B1 grounds in the hole between short and third. B1 CLEARLY beats the throw but does not touch first. In FED, the BU would signal OUT. In OBR, the BU would signal Safe and the defense would have to appeal in order to get the out.

IMO, the FED had it right under the old rule. We will have to wait and see until this year is over before giving a full evaluation.

Pete Booth

[TxUmp]

A further complication to my original post:

The situation is now further expanded to the 7th inning, home team down 1 run, 2 outs, bases loaded, B1 hits safely, and R1 misses 2nd and is thrown out before reaching 3rd for the 3rd out. R3 and R2 have scored before the play at 3rd. The game is over in either case. Defense does not realize that R1 missed 2nd.

If you call the "accidental" appeal, no runs score because of the force play at 2nd and the visitors win. If you don't call it, two runs score and the home team wins. How are you going to get off the field alive?

[Edited by TxUmp on Mar 1st, 2002 at 07:50 AM]

[Mike M]

Is the game being televised with replay cameras?

[jicecone]

ok guys then what about the Note in the "2002 Baseball Rules Interpretations Pre-Season Bullentin" , Page 3 "unless the defense makes a valid appeal the umpire will ignore the base running infraction". In the situations above the umpire is not only acknowledging the missed base, but calling the player out without any valid appeal whatsoever.

I did'nt write it???????????

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by jicecone

ok guys then what about the Note in the "2002 Baseball Rules Interpretations Pre-Season Bullentin" , Page 3 "unless the defense makes a valid appeal the umpire will ignore the base running infraction".

An accidental appeal is VALID What the above is stating is that the Umpire will no longer AUTOMATICALLY call out a runner (as in the past) when they miss a base.

Valid Appeals:

1. Live Ball, which includes accidental as when B1 misses first base. and

2. Dead Ball


IMO, you are getting hung up on the word VALID.

The FED should have kept the old rule but that is my opinion. As stated, we will have to wait until the end of the season to fully comment on the NEW rule. There are many NEW rules that when first introduced appear to be "jokes".

Remember way back, when the DH rule came into prominence, many were opposed to that ruling as well. On the surface as another poster said, it doesn't appear the FED took time in redefining the NEW rule.

IMO, they should have

A. Kept is the "old way" or

B. Simply adopted the OBR wording

As the season gets into "full bloom" I'm sure we will hear some "horror" stories about this new rule. As they say - STAY TUNED

Pete Booth

[greymule]

Guy hits one off the wall, misses first, hits second, and slides into third safely but is called out when tagged, and no one but the umpire knows why. But if he hits one off the wall and misses second, he's not called out when he's tagged at third.

So they changed last year's "no appeal, umpire just calls it" rule except when a missed base is a force and the runner is tagged for some reason that has nothing to do with the missed base.

Goes into the dumb rules Hall of Fame.

[Roger Greene]

Guys,
The appeal rule is not the problem. 2-29-3 is the problem.

"....When a runner advances beyond a base to which he is forced without touching it, the force play remains...."

They fixed that in Fed softball when they instituted the appeal rule last year. Ther are no accidental appeals in softball.

Roger Greene

[jicecone]

Your right on the validity part Pete, but I, like others are gonna have a tough time selling an out when a runner going from first to third, misses second, and the ball is thrown to try and get him out at third. It arrives late and F5 nonchalantly tags him (for whatever reason they do that, but they do), and Im pumping the player out. Most games, when reasonalby asked, I will attempt to give a coach an explanation of my call. Wether it is always accepted is sometimes a different story however, I have a feeling that I am not going to be able to explain what I am explaning this time. This game is great!!!!!!!

And to boot most coaches will not even understand what was published in the rule book, let alone what has not been published in the rule book. I might just "accidentally" get this right before the first pitch this season. I certainlly hope so.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by jicecone

Your right on the validity part Pete, but I, like others are gonna have a tough time selling an out when a runner going from first to third, misses second, and the ball is thrown to try and get him out at third. It arrives late and F5 nonchalantly tags him (for whatever reason they do that, but they do), and Im pumping the player out.

I agree 100% however, if we do not call it that way, the FED will NEVER change it to see how rediculous it is. If this call were made on a consistent bases, the coaches would be "livid" and the rule would change.

In addition, IMO, Most (includes myself) of us simply IGNORE THAT PART OF THE RULE, because as you mentioned, how are we going to explain it.

At least under the old rule, we could ignore it, but record the out after playing action ended and give a good explanation - Hey Skip your runner missed second - No runs score because it was a force out.

Not to be repetitive, but IMO the FED had it right to begin with.

It's not that we want to enforce our own rules, it's just that a play like the one described doesn't make BASEBALL sense.

Unfortunately, it will probably take some BIG State Championship Game or equivalent on this type of play before the FED changes it. If we continue to ignore it, nothing will be done.

Pete Booth

[greymule]

In situation 19, what if the runner had not been tagged while standing on 3B, but instead an infielder in possession of the live ball had kicked some dirt off 2B before throwing the ball to the pitcher? Does PeteBooth's example of the play at 1B apply at other bases, too?

PeteBooth, I've read the example you gave at 1B, but I can't find it. Where is it?