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Thu Feb 28, 2002, 05:07pm
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This play was found on a coaches website, and I wonder if it is legal. With a runners on first and third, he advises sending R1 out into right field and drawing attention to let R3 steal home. He claims it is legal because the runner is not leaving the basepath 'to avoid a tag'. My Fed. rulebook, however, says that a runner is out for 'abandoning his effort to touch the next base'. Can I call R1 out?
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Fri Mar 01, 2002, 10:03am
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Quote:
FED 2000 Interpretations, Situation 19. If the defense doesn't want R3 to steal home, ignore R1. He's just farther from second and more likely to be forced out.
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Fri Mar 01, 2002, 01:21pm
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Appears to be like the basketball situation that they show on all the blooper shows. Under the basket, inbounds pass, player not in on play falls down and starts acting like he is having convulsions, everyone watches, the team passes ball to the player under hoop who makes uncontested lay-up. Game over.
I would not penalize anyone for this. If a guy runs out into right field and acts like and idiot, AND the opposing team stops and watches, their fault. I would think that if the opposing team shows discipline and plays ball, and that play does not work, the coach, team, and player will look like combined idiots and probably never use it again. I know if I was a parent, and my coach who is hired to coach these kids correctly, pulls something like this and disrespects the team, the board would be hearing it.
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Fri Mar 01, 2002, 01:43pm
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In this situation, if R1 takes off into right field, he is not abandoning, he is stealing. At least that is what you have to consider him doing. The runner establishes his own base line. If the defense is smart enough to ignore R1 and don't get too jumpy, they could retire both runners legaly.
After that play (and probably a good laugh), I would probably excuse the offensive coach for the rest of the game.
__________________
When in doubt, bang 'em out! Ozzy
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Fri Mar 01, 2002, 02:26pm
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This play was around when I was a kid playing Pony league ball back in the 60's and probably longer than that. We called it the "skunk in the outfield" play and I think I only ever saw it work once or twice against a poor team with a rookie coach.
While a lot of people don't like it there is really nothing illegal about it. SamC
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Fri Mar 01, 2002, 03:19pm
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Can the runner really do this?
Yes. Can I call him out? Not if you are umpiring by the rules. This is really no different from the runner who stops half way between first and second trying to draw a throw. Is it ugly? Yes. Is it illegal? No.
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Fri Mar 01, 2002, 04:07pm
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Quote:
__________________
A friend is someone who knows the song in your heart, and can sing it back to you when you have forgotten the words. - Donna Robert
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Fri Mar 01, 2002, 06:05pm
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The runner on 1B runs 150 feet out and stands behind F9 and doesn't move. How does the defense play it? Do they throw to 2B, and have F6 keep an eye on the runner on third while walking down the baseline toward 1B "attempting to tag the runner"?
Or does the defense ignore the runner and play normally, figuring that the runner has simply placed himself farther from the bases? Then the runner bowls F9 over and wants obstruction?
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greymule More whiskey—and fresh horses for my men! Roll Tide!
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Fri Mar 01, 2002, 10:47pm
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"Then the runner bowls F9 over and wants obstruction?"
To see the obstruction, the umpire would have have his back to the pitch/hit/infield etc. "Sorry coach - didn't see it"
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Rich Ives Different does not equate to wrong
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Sun Mar 03, 2002, 01:53pm
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Quote:
Hmmm........seems an opposing coach could merely teach his F1 to step back off the rubber and start running toward R1 as R1 is heading to the outfield. My bet is most officials might like to interpret R1's actions at that point as leaving his basepath when being played upon. At the very least, the defensive coach could appeal to the officials that this, indeed, is HIS trick play to counter the offense's trick play. Let's see....he's appealing a rule interpretation. Could this be corrected if not originally called? Most officials I know are not fond of trick plays; they prefer real baseball. I, for one, would welcome the opportunity to keep runners from heading to the outfield. As stated, I might even consider that making a travesty of the game, but the basepath rule is a much better one to use to get back to baseball. Just a thought, Freix
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Sun Mar 03, 2002, 02:46pm
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Why fret?
Why worry about this runner? Why run after him, that's what the offense wants so R3 can score. Ignore him.
What can happen that's any worse then if he stayed at first? Batter hits grounder to infield...easiest double play ever and R3 is still at third. Fly ball? Let's see R1 tag up! Base hit? Well R3 would have scored anywayl, so that's nothing new, but if you can't get R1 out you shouldn't be playing the game.
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Sun Mar 03, 2002, 11:27pm
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Garth, I've been in a few Fed games where they've tried this play. It's never worked.
Worst case was a coach who clued me in on their play before the game to assure I knew R1's leadoff to the cut of the outfield grass was legal. When they tried their play, his kid ran halfway to 2nd and went back to the outfield grasscut. F1 initially disengaged the rubber and walked toward R1. R1 eventually broke toward 2nd, and F1 threw to F6 at the bag. The runner stopped short of the base, and when F6 went after him, R1 retraced his footsteps instead of taking his new basepath back toward 1B. I immediately rang him up for 3rd out before R3 scored. Coach came out to argue. I told him details of the basepath, and advised retracing the steps meant R1 left his new basepath when played upon. Seems the coach didn't teach the trick as well as he thought. Freix
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Mon Mar 04, 2002, 02:33pm
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Phillip;
This is were big dogs separate themselves from the little dogs. Big dogs: 1. Don't call the guy out. 2. Don't allow R1 to head into right field. How is it possible to do both and why is it necessary to do do both. Here's how and why: I have analyzed the time necessary to make this play work in MLB or NCAA D1 ball and it would work. However, you have never seen this play in MLB or NCAA and you never will. This is the reason that you want to make sure that it never occurs in any of your games. Third World Plays only happen to third world umpires. Allowing this "legal" play to occur in your game will undermine your umpiring authority among your peers. So: When R1 heads into right field, the BU should call time. Once time is called, R1 must go back to first base. Tell the coach that this play WILL NOT be repeated. Eject the coach if he argues with you. Make sure that you eject the coach for something other than trying to put on this play. Throw him out for being disrepectful. A crafty umpire can quietly light him up and cause him to do something stupid so that he can be legitimately ejected. Say something quietly like "Why don't you try teaching your players real baseball?" That is sure to provoke a comment that you can eject him for. Keep in mind, that if a senior umpire saw you let a play like this occur in your games, his opinion of your talents would not be good. You owe to your career to minimize the weird stuff on a baseball field. You want your games to run as smoothly as the ones that everyone sees on television. If a coach is screwing with your career and reputation, f$$$ 'em. Peter
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