Roger before Congress

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CO ump

I don't think so. Anabolic steroids have never been over the counter.
They are prescription only for medical purposes, not for performance enhancing purposes.

So

1. If a player is or was acquiring steroids with a prescription absent the medical purpose then he is or was acquiring them frauduently. ILLEGAL

2. If he is acquiring them without a prescription in the black market. ILLEGAL
Which is probably 99% of what's happening since they don't want a paper trail.

All drugs that people take that are not over the counter are not considered illegal or were not illegal at that time of when most are being accused of using them. And even drugs that you get over the counter in multiple situations are illegal in the NFL and definitely with the International Olympic Organization. And you can get steroids through a doctor and a prescription in many cases, but if you are an NFL player, you can still be suspended if the steroids are found in your system.

Originally Posted by CO ump

Is your point that since some players took steroids with no apparent success it therefore makes it ok? Since they were apparently unsuccessful in their attempt to cheat it is not cheating or illegal?

My point has always been that steroids and the usage of steroid success are well over played. And there are many factors players have success or failure of baseball players. Things like field sizes, expansion that has players that 25 years ago would never be playing, baseball construction, bat sizes, technology (video, training techniques, supplements, diet) and even the kinds of travel players have access to. Players are not taking the train anymore to games. And players make enough money they can train year-round unlike what was common when guys were playing in the 60s and before.

Originally Posted by CO ump

If B1 walks to the mound and takes a swing at F1, we throw him out of the game even if he doesn't make contact, because intent matters.

The drugs are only frowned upon now because they are illegal now. When McGuire was on his little run he prominently had in his locker Andro. It was not illegal at the time, now it is. I think most of this crap is all about the fact that people that are old and crotchety do not want to believe that someone was actually better than their old heroes when they were growing up. Even thought in every sport players have gotten bigger, faster, and stronger and for some reason we compare things that in other aspects of society would be absurd.

Peace

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

...I think most of this crap is all about the fact that people that are old and crotchety do not want to believe that someone was actually better than their old heroes when they were growing up. Even thought in every sport players have gotten bigger, faster, and stronger and for some reason we compare things that in other aspects of society would be absurd.

Peace

And here I was about to believe you when you said you had no agenda.

Your twisted logic about legal/illegal/banned/OTC/prescription is so convoluted it needs no response. You are practically arguing with yourself on that one.

As to facts about the effects of these drugs, would you accept the Mayo Clinic's word?

Why are these drugs so appealing to athletes? Besides making muscles bigger, anabolic steroids may help athletes recover from a hard workout more quickly by reducing the amount of muscle damage that occurs during the session. In addition, some athletes may like the aggressive feelings they get when they take the drugs.

...

Creatine helps muscles make and circulate more adenosine triphosphate (ATP). ATP is used for quick, explosive bursts of activity, as in weightlifting or sprinting. Creatine also reduces energy waste products — such as lactic acid — that can cause muscle fatigue. As a result, creatine is purported to enhance performance and decrease fatigue.

Taking performance-enhancing drugs: Are you risking your health?

Studies of adults with growth hormone deficiencies show that injections of human growth hormone can:

* Increase bone density
* Increase muscle mass
* Decrease body fat
* Bolster the heart's ability to contract
* Improve mood and motivation
* Increase exercise capacity

Because of those results, some people believe that synthetic human growth hormone can help healthy older adults who have naturally low levels of growth hormone regain some of their youth and vitality.

...

Studies of healthy older adults taking human growth hormone are limited. Many involve a small number of people followed for a short period of time. The studies that have been conducted have found that human growth hormone injections can increase muscle mass and reduce the amount of body fat in healthy older adults.

Human growth hormone (HGH): Does it slow aging process?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Dakota

And here I was about to believe you when you said you had no agenda.

Your twisted logic about legal/illegal/banned/OTC/prescription is so convoluted it needs no response. You are practically arguing with yourself on that one.

As to facts about the effects of these drugs, would you accept the Mayo Clinic's word?

If that is having an agenda, so do you. And that agenda is not something I buy into. You can quote all the things you like; it is not going to change my mind. And I am certainly not trying to change your mind. Think what you want. The research is out there on all sides and you can look all of this up. Just do not be surprised when you run into things that do not think there is a great affect to steroids as you claim they have. And certainly a baseball player can get bigger. Steroids are not going to make them hit a baseball. If that is the case I should have taken steroids when I was a kid, I would be a Major League Baseball player.

And the funniest thing is the Mayo Clinic reference you have as if that is the only medical reference that matters. Next time tell me the Mayo's clinic opinion about alternative medicines to cure Cancer?

Peace

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And the funniest thing is the Mayo Clinic reference you have as if that is the only medical reference that matters. Next time tell me the Mayo's clinic opinion about alternative medicines to cure Cancer?

Peace

I could have also provided references from NIH, several schools of medicine, etc. You have claimed there is no evidence, only opinion. I provided reputable medical references. Your response? "My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with the facts." And to try to attack the Mayo Clinics credibility. That's funny. Good luck with your irrational defense of your heros.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You can quote all the things you like; it is not going to change my mind.

Translation: "I have my mind made up, don't bother me with facts."

Steroids are not going to make them hit a baseball. If that is the case I should have taken steroids when I was a kid, I would be a Major League Baseball player.

You still don't understand the effect of steriods. Steriods simply help someone become a bit stronger, bigger, faster, than what they are. They build upon a base.

A weak hitting shortstop will be a slightly weaker hitting shortstop, and that might be enough to keep him in the game. Someone, like Bonds or Clemens, who possess talent will get an extra push that could make the difference between 60 home runs and 70 home runs, or 12 strike outs and 14 strike outs. Someone with no talent at all, will still have no talent at all. I have no idea which group you were in when you were a kid.

[SAump]

Working out produces natural toxins in the muscle.
Steroids remove these toxins and shorten muscle recovery time.
Working out over longer periods of time also becomes more addictive.
An athlete, who took years to gain an edge, cuts down that time period.
Steroid enhance the performance "peaks" which surge beyond natural ability.
These new performance plateaus which last longer periods of time are also diminished as steroids help one overcome them.
To suggest that steroids only helped somebody who already had the talent is very decieving, almost >BS<.
One little bit adds to another little bit and before long steroids have added a significant unfair advantage.

Huge weightlifters {ripped} become puny again after getting off the stuff.
Only time will tell what other damage was done.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SAump

To suggest that steroids only helped somebody who already had the talent is very decieving, almost >BS<.

Sorry. But a puny 90 pounder with no talent for baseball can take steriods again and again, and not be a better ball player.

Steriods will not, by themselves, make anyone a homerun hitter. The Mitchell report is full of names of journeyman players who used steriods and received just enough of an edge to remain journeman players longer than they would have otherwise.

None of this is BS. It has all been documented. The better the player performed before steroids, the better he performed after steroids.

Originally Posted by SAump

Huge weightlifters {ripped} become puny again after getting off the stuff.
Only time will tell what other damage was done.

An exaggeration. People who bulk up with steriods lose size after quitting, but they don't become puny unless other factors are at work. Arnold Schwarzenegger, for example, has been off steriods for years. He is measurably smaller than before, but puny?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GarthB

You still don't understand the effect of steriods. Steriods simply help someone become a bit stronger, bigger, faster, than what they are. They build upon a base.

This has nothing to do with understanding. I do not accept that steroids make you a better player. There are too many other factors, which for some reason no one ever wants to address, but I am the one not dealing with facts.

Originally Posted by GarthB

A weak hitting shortstop will be a slightly weaker hitting shortstop, and that might be enough to keep him in the game. Someone, like Bonds or Clemens, who possess talent will get an extra push that could make the difference between 60 home runs and 70 home runs, or 12 strike outs and 14 strike outs. Someone with no talent at all, will still have no talent at all. I have no idea which group you were in when you were a kid.

Here is the problem with what you said. Clemens struck out 20 twice and did so when he was much skinner and younger than he is now. Is not the size supposed to be a factor in steroid use?

Bonds was on pace to hit homeruns with McGuire and Sosa back in 96, but got hurt and missed big portions of the season.

I had some fielding talent and I was fast, I just could not hit a baseball consistently or very well. And steroids would not have made me a better player. You have to hit a curve ball consistently. Anyone can hit fast balls or at least I could.

Peace

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This has nothing to do with understanding. I do not accept that steroids make you a better player.

It's like the movie Rocky. Rut in this case, is Rocky Balboa, and Apollo Creed is everything else on the forum. It's the tenth round. He's bloodied. Rut yells "Cut me, cut me!" And every time Rut falls, everyone says, "Stay down, Rut! Stay down!" But does he stay down?

No.

Like Rocky, he gets back up, and in the end he -- actually Rut loses really badly here. Okay, doesn't matter. Doesn’t matter.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by fitump56

It's like the movie Rocky. Rut in this case, is Rocky Balboa, and Apollo Creed is everything else on the forum. It's the tenth round. He's bloodied. Rut yells "Cut me, cut me!" And every time Rut falls, everyone says, "Stay down, Rut! Stay down!" But does he stay down?

No.

Like Rocky, he gets back up, and in the end he -- actually Rut loses really badly here. Okay, doesn't matter. Doesn’t matter.

The final bell has sounded and the fight has ended.

I'll leave it to the korean judge to determine the winner.