Missed NFHS Test Question

[justanotherblue]

Ya know, yes, the ball is dead, but don't you think it's kinda important to know why?! Not all recognize that a bunt can't invoke the IFF, we all should recognize an intentionally dropped ball is an immediate dead ball. Yep regardless the ball should be called dead, so hopefully as an umpire the ball was called dead, but was it for the right reason. It's a fed question, poor as it may be, they rule false as I agree. The key for me in the question is the word bunt. What the Fed intent is only they know. You can use the intentionally dropped ball. Hopefully we all would make the same call, but for which reason. Food for thought.

[dash_riprock]

It's time to kill this thread.

Answer FALSE on the test, don't call IFF on a bunt and kill the ball when an infielder intentionally drops a ball with at least 1st occupied and less than 2 out.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

Ya know, yes, the ball is dead, but don't you think it's kinda important to know why?! Not all recognize that a bunt can't invoke the IFF, we all should recognize an intentionally dropped ball is an immediate dead ball. Yep regardless the ball should be called dead, so hopefully as an umpire the ball was called dead, but was it for the right reason. It's a fed question, poor as it may be, they rule false as I agree. The key for me in the question is the word bunt. What the Fed intent is only they know. You can use the intentionally dropped ball. Hopefully we all would make the same call, but for which reason. Food for thought.

I don't follow your thought process at all. How do you get false out of this? We know the bunt is not an IFF, so you kill this immediately - thus making the statement TRUE. The ONLY time you would NOT kill it would be when the IFF is enforced. We agree that this sitch is NOT that time.

Let me rephrase it - If I posted on here the following question, how would you respond? "Runners on 1st and 2nd less than two outs. Batter attempts a bunt and pops it up. F1 drops the ball intentionally. Would this be an immediate dead ball?"

If you would answer "yes" to this proposed question, then the FED question is true. All I did was remove the ridiculous FED wording.

I follow your process right up until you get to claiming this to be false. Other than false being the answer that FED gives, I just can't see it being the correct answer, and your logic leads away from it as well.

How can the statement "It is an immediate dead ball when: with R1 & R2, less than two outs, a fielder intentionally drops a bunt attempt that is popped up on the infield" not be true?

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by ManInBlue

I don't follow your thought process at all. How do you get false out of this? We know the bunt is not an IFF, so you kill this immediately - thus making the statement TRUE. The ONLY time you would NOT kill it would be when the IFF is enforced. We agree that this sitch is NOT that time.

Let me rephrase it - If I posted on here the following question, how would you respond? "Runners on 1st and 2nd less than two outs. Batter attempts a bunt and pops it up. F1 drops the ball intentionally. Would this be an immediate dead ball?"

If you would answer "yes" to this proposed question, then the FED question is true. All I did was remove the ridiculous FED wording.

I follow your process right up until you get to claiming this to be false. Other than false being the answer that FED gives, I just can't see it being the correct answer, and your logic leads away from it as well.

How can the statement "It is an immediate dead ball when: with R1 & R2, less than two outs, a fielder intentionally drops a bunt attempt that is popped up on the infield" not be true?

Dude,

What other questions did you miss? I see you're also having trouble grasping the whole "contacting the rubber" issue as well.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by SAump

Perhaps, what was meant by intentionally drops a fair bunt in flight in this scenario was a ball "intentionally not caught in the air" and allowed to drop to the ground untouched.

Perhaps.

But that would conflict with how the term "intentionally dropped" is used in both the rule book or case play. There, an "intentionally dropped" ball is one that the fielder must actually touch, then purposely drop or guide to the ground in effort to decieve the runners and gain "unearned" outs.

Going off subject a bit...

How many "intentionally dropped" balls have you ever had to call? Me, I can recall only one in my career.

Kind of odd that there is much ado about possibly one of the least invoked rules in the game.

[outathm]

Personally, I missed the question, took my score of 99 and accepted the fact the NFHS test writers are idiots.

[johnnyg08]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Perhaps.

But that would conflict with how the term "intentionally dropped" is used in both the rule book or case play. There, an "intentionally dropped" ball is one that the fielder must actually touch, then purposely drop or guide to the ground in effort to decieve the runners and gain "unearned" outs.

Going off subject a bit...

How many "intentionally dropped" balls have you ever had to call? Me, I can recall only one in my career.

Kind of odd that there is much ado about possibly one of the least invoked rules in the game.

Had one last year...nearly had to eject because the defensive "coach" didn't know the rule...don't anticipate seeing another for awhile. Most kids at the FED level haven't been coached to correctly execute that play and many have all they can do to catch a ball, much less attempt to not catch it...JMO

[Steven Tyler]

Not a trick question. It is a false statement consistent with true/false tests. From this statement, one should be able to conclude that no matter the base running situation, never utter the phrase, "Infield fly, batter's out." on any ball that is bunted. I don't care how high the ball flies into the air. Same theory applies for all line drives, also. FED rule 2-19 is very helpful in making this determination if one is taking a FED test.

I believe what the statement is implying is that the infield fly rule takes effect when the umpire calls, "Infield fly, batter's out". Therefore the batter is already out, so don't kill the play. Just play it like you would if the bunt was a normal swinging attempt.

In other words, the ball is not immediately dead when the fielder intentionally drops the ball.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

I believe what the statement is implying is that the infield fly rule takes effect when the umpire calls, "Infield fly, batter's out".

That's inconsistent with a FED case play in which "it's up to the participants to know the status" (or words to that effect).

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That's inconsistent with a FED case play in which "it's up to the participants to know the status" (or words to that effect).

Hey, I gave it a shot and your point is quite true as well.

Had to explain that one to a coach one time as I was in the field pointing to the ball and my partner never said a word. I got the words out just before the ball hit the ground (misjudged the towering pop up) and the kid took off for third.

If something isn't screwed up on a test, then we need to start to worrying....

[JJ]

In Illinois the test key was changed so "TRUE" would be the correct answer. Since a bunt cannot be an infield fly, the fact that the pieces for an infield fly are in place (runner-wise and out-wise) has no bearing on the play. It's an intentionally dropped ball and is dead immediately.

Here'a a spin - the question says "intentionally dropped", which would IMPLY touched-then dropped, but how about if it's allowed to drop intentionally without being touched. That could be twisted into "intentionally dropped", but that ball isn't dead.

In Illinois we did throw out one question completly - It says, "Batter's Interference Occurs ...75. If the ball is always immediately dead." HUH?
We felt the wording was so bad we just tossed the question, so if you answer either true OR false you'll get credit.

For the most part, if you look at the test answers rule references, they will be pretty much verbatum what the questions are. I did say "pretty much". Part 2 test is "pretty much" the same.

JJ

[johnnyg08]

but how about if it's allowed to drop intentionally without being touched

No, that's how you'd coach the play...that's why the batter/runner should run everything out, especially his crappy bunt. Live ball, play on, turn a triple play if you can...

(Assuming no IFF rule)

[BretMan]

Anyone bother to read the case play?

8.4.1.G: With bases loaded and one out (a potential infield fly situation), B5 bunts a ball in the air. F3 uses the back of his glove to gently knock the ball to the ground (this meets the intentional drop definition) where he picks it up and throws to F2 who touches the plate then throws out B5 at first.

RULING: The ball is dead (Dead! There is our answer!). B5 is out and the runners return. (These next two sentences don't have anything to do with our question, rather they better help to explain what constitutes an intentional drop.) Manipulating the ball to the ground is prohibited. Allowing the ball to drop to the ground untouched is not considered an intentionally dropped ball.

Now...what was the question?

True or False: The ball is immediately dead when: With the infield fly rule in effect, an infielder intentionally drops a fair bunt in flight.

How can you read that case play and come up with anything other than true?

[JJ]

Originally Posted by JJ

In Illinois the test key was changed so "TRUE" would be the correct answer. Since a bunt cannot be an infield fly, the fact that the pieces for an infield fly are in place (runner-wise and out-wise) has no bearing on the play. It's an intentionally dropped ball and is dead immediately.

JJ

I think I posted this on page 2 of this thread. Looks like we're starting to repeat!

[umpduck11]

The State says I did indeed miss the question, due to the fact that you cannot declare a bunt an infield fly. I guess they were not interested in addressing the wording of the question.