Roger Clemens

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I would love to believe Clemens didn't ever use steroids. But....?

Clemens sure waited a long time to become outraged about the accusations. If it were an innocent person, they would more likely have began vehement protestations immediately upon being accused. It's all way too orchestrated.

When I saw the 60 Minutes story, His eye movement and evasive answers screamed, "liar, liar, pants on fire."

And when given the chance by Wallace to say something to McNamee, he chose to go with something like, "why did you do this after all I did for you," which is like saying "after all I did for you, why did you rat me out." Why didn't Clemens ask McNamee why he was lying about the steroid use? He never challenged McNamee on that, and it seems rather odd to me.

That makes sense. You have to come out right away and say something without protecting yourself legally. That makes perfect sense. Tell me anytime someone comes out and holds a press conference immediately saying they are innocent even though there are legal issues at stake. Then again, we live in a guilty until proven innocent mentality. I would think some people would like more evidence than just an accusation that is only a he said, he said kind of situation.

I think Clemens made a great point in the 60 minutes interview. If he used steroids, where is the paper trail? Where is the dealer that gave them to him? Where are the other players that know Roger used steroids? There would have to be more than just these two people that knew this was going on. Even in the Peterson case in Illinois, there are other people that saw things and had things said to them about the missing woman. There is more evidence than "this is what I saw."

Peace

[Cub42]

So lets get this straight, RC is presumed guilty because he didn't scream, rant and rave SOON ENOUGH ? Furthermore, that pillar of truth and character Mcnamee wasn't challenged in the phone call? I forgot that you have to prove yourself innocent against charges leveled by a wannabe never was while he makes deals to stay out of jail. Well thought out.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Cub42

So lets get this straight, RC is presumed guilty because he didn't scream, rant and rave SOON ENOUGH ? Furthermore, that pillar of truth and character Mcnamee wasn't challenged in the phone call? I forgot that you have to prove yourself innocent against charges leveled by a wannabe never was while he makes deals to stay out of jail. Well thought out.

There is no presumption of innocence in the court of public opinion.

They all lack credibility. As for the truth of the matter, I personally reserve judgment.

[gordon30307]

Is it expected that athletic performance will improve as they approach there late 30's and 40's? I'm not an expert but based on past history I say no. There are exceptions to the rule. Sure are a lot of exceptions as of late.

As to the Rockets reputation if he's innocent it's unfortunate that his reputation takes a hit. When you're a high profile "celebrity" it comes with the territory.

[Dakota]

I don't know who is telling the truth here, but I do observe this:

Who had the most to lose by lying about it (either way)? McNamee. (prison)

Who had the most to gain by claiming the steroids were not used? Clemens. (protect reputation)

So, if we assume both were acting in their narrow best self-interest, McNamee is telling the truth and Clemens is lying.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

Is it expected that athletic performance will improve as they approach there late 30's and 40's? I'm not an expert but based on past history I say no. There are exceptions to the rule. Sure are a lot of exceptions as of late.

If we want to base things on past history, people are living longer than they did 50 years ago. There was a time when people would get a knee injury and their career would be over. Now if a player tears major ligaments, they are able to come back within a year. Diets have changed drastically. People in all sports are bigger and stronger and faster because they train year-round. Do you ever watch old NFL Films and the players talked about how they drank and boozed all night, and then played a game. Max McGee the night before the Super Bowl broke curfew and stayed out all night and he had the best game of his career. Guys do not do that anymore or to the level it was once talked about. I think these guys take care of themselves much better than that and that is why you have older players in all sports playing at high levels.

Originally Posted by gordon30307

As to the Rockets reputation if he's innocent it's unfortunate that his reputation takes a hit. When you're a high profile "celebrity" it comes with the territory.

It might come with the territory, but if this can happen to them, it can happen to you. All of us are an accusation away from having our lives affected greatly. And you do not have to be famous to have the right person accuse you of something and you life is turned on its head. I tend to want more evidence than a person going to jail trying to tell the Feds things so he will not go away for a longer time. And when people say he has nothing to gain, that is just funny.

Peace

[PeteBooth]

Regardless of the outcome the baseball players have themselves to blame.

Football had a problem too but there were no names mentioned by the then Commissioner Pete Rosell. The players worked with ownership to clean up the sport. Are football players still using steroids? - Of coarse but they pay a hefty penalty if they get caught (just ask Shawn Merriman of the Chargers) which as an organization is all you can really do.

For years baseball had a problem but neither the players union or ownership did anything about it. MLB was embarrased in front of Congress, hence the Mitchell inestigation so that Bud could save "face" in front of Congress.

Is there actual porof that Roger took the stuff - NO , but IMO, one can judge that beyond a reasonable doubt Roger took the stuff. Just look at his record in the beginning of 1998 when he was with the Blue-Jays then "presto" he goes on to win 20 games and capture the CY young award.

Also, for the most part the other names (Petit comes to mind) on the list already admitted to taking the stuff so there is credibility in what Mcnamee said.

Bottom Line- Roger need only look to his own union which is the major cause for his hardship now not Mcnamee.

Pete Booth

[Steve M]

"Just look at his record in the beginning of 1998 when he was with the Blue-Jays then "presto" he goes on to win 20 games and capture the CY young award."
Now I'm left with a question or two. Did Clemens' speed/power pitching increase at this time? Did his size increase. I don't see where he increased speed and I don't see that he increased size - as is expected and noticed in other users. I also don't see how increased strength is going to do anything but make him less accurate, so - did his walks and HBP increase?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Steve M

"Just look at his record in the beginning of 1998 when he was with the Blue-Jays then "presto" he goes on to win 20 games and capture the CY young award."
Now I'm left with a question or two. Did Clemens' speed/power pitching increase at this time? Did his size increase. I don't see where he increased speed and I don't see that he increased size - as is expected and noticed in other users. I also don't see how increased strength is going to do anything but make him less accurate, so - did his walks and HBP increase?

I will take it a step further. The size of a person is also a bad judge of who took a drug or not. Change your diet, lift more weights, you will get bigger in many ways over a period of time. Heck people that are getting paid millions work out more than most of us.

Also pitching is about control more than speed. There are players that can hit 100 but cannot get the ball over the plate. Remember Matt "Wild Thang" Williams when he played for Philly and the Cubs? He could throw really hard but he could not get the ball over the plate. And he had trouble at critical times. I think pitching can benefit from steroids the least. Steroids does not help you control the ball or tell you when to go inside on a batter like Roger has done well most of his career. And Clemens the last several years would hardly go longer than 5 or 6 innings. I am not seeing this drastic jump in his ability in the latter years as compared to even Bonds. Roger basically did less year in and year out. The last two years Roger did not even play a full season because he waited until almost a 3rd of the season was over then he decided to come back and play.

The bottom line is we have a bunch of people that never did anything athletic (the media) telling the public that steroids are so bad and help performance based on size of players (alone) and we think it helped players enhance their performance.

Peace

[jimpiano]

All Bowl games results under Lloyd Carr's regime. SEC who???

2008 Michigan 41, Florida 35
2002 Michigan 38, Florida 30
2001 Tennessee 45, Michigan 17
2000 Michigan 31, Auburn 28
1999 Michigan 35, Alabama 34 (OT)
1998 Michigan 45, Arkansas 31

BTW, Ohio State is 0-10 against the SEC in Bowl Games. Great way to represent the Big Ten OSU.

You forgot the 17-14 loss to Alabama in the January 1997 Outback Bowl.
This is still a more than respectable Lloyd Carr record against the SEC of 5-2 which leads to the rocks, scissors, paper of SEC beats Ohio State, Jim Tressel beats Lloyd Carr and Carr beats the SEC.

Tressel, by the way, has a 4-2 record in BCS Bowls so his Ohio State teams do represent the Big Ten very well.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

You forgot the 17-14 loss to Alabama in the January 1997 Outback Bowl.
This is still a more than respectable Lloyd Carr record against the SEC of 5-2 which leads to the rocks, scissors, paper of SEC beats Ohio State, Jim Tressel beats Lloyd Carr and Carr beats the SEC.

Tressel, by the way, has a 4-2 record in BCS Bowls so his Ohio State teams do represent the Big Ten very well.

Ohio State Bowl History

Ohio State beat teams like Oklahoma State, Kansas State and Texas A&M. OSU played South Carolina two years in a row and that was pre-Spurrier era and lost both times. These are not even top programs year in and year out. Part of the reason the Big Ten gets crap is because OSU when they have had success cannot beat one SEC team. Michigan has historically has beaten up on the SEC even before Carr was a coach. If we are going to talk about domination, I have a name for you, John Cooper. How did that work out for you?

Peace

[SAump]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

Also, for the most part the other names (Petit comes to mind) on the list already admitted to taking the stuff so there is credibility in what Mcnamee said.

Bottom Line- Roger need only look to his own union which is the major cause for his hardship now not Mcnamee.

Pete Booth

Clemens played for the Yankees. How many Yankee teammates were reportedly using steroids during that time? Half of the entire Yankee line-up has already admitted to using "something" and suspicion of other Yankees; including Roger's success cannot be overlooked. The steroid pipeline from CA to NY was exposed. When 2 to 3 more former Yankee pitchers were caught and/or fessed up after initially saying they had not used steroids; the gravity of the problem became too difficult for the Rocket to escape.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Ohio State Bowl History

Ohio State beat teams like Oklahoma State, Kansas State and Texas A&M. OSU played South Carolina two years in a row and that was pre-Spurrier era and lost both times. These are not even top programs year in and year out. Part of the reason the Big Ten gets crap is because OSU when they have had success cannot beat one SEC team. Michigan has historically has beaten up on the SEC even before Carr was a coach. If we are going to talk about domination, I have a name for you, John Cooper. How did that work out for you?

Peace

John Cooper worked out just fine for OSU. His Michigan and Bowl records were not very good, but he sent more players to the NFL than any other big ten school during his career including Heisman Trophy winner Eddie George, 1996 Outland Trophy winner Orlando Pace, Alonzo Spellman, Robert Smith, Dan Wilkinson, Joey Galloway, Terry Glenn, Mike Vrabel, David Boston, Shawn Springs, Antoine Winfield, Ahmed Plummer, Na’il Diggs, Nate Clements, and Ryan Pickett. For the most part his Ohio State teams were fun to watch. Cooper had a won-loss record of 111-43-1 second only to Woody Hayes. During his tenure the Athletic Department raised the money to expand Ohio Stadium to 106,000 seats.

But I am not into a OSU/Michigan rivalry contest. I only pointed out the error in your Michigan/SEC listing and that OSU under Tressel has represented the Big Ten very well. Lloyd Carr, likewise, was one of the best coaches the Big Ten ever had and under his tenure Michigan became the all time leader in wins and winning per centage.

His retirement officially ends the Schembechler era at Michigan with a legacy of 33 straight bowl appearances. It could have been 39, the same number as the years of the Schembechler era, had the Big Ten allowed teams to go to more than just the Rose until 1975.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

But I am not into a OSU/Michigan rivalry contest. I only pointed out the error in your Michigan/SEC listing and that OSU under Tressel has represented the Big Ten very well.

The Big Ten is down. I will give you this: Tressel and his AD are smart as year in and year out (sine the Big Ten does not have a Conference Championship Game) sit back and wait for the SEC or the "other" conferences to "knock themselves out" and thus get into the National Championship game as evidenced by this year.

They were 10 and 1 but IMO that's not impressive because there out of conference schedule was a joke and the BIG Ten was down. Michigan was all "banged up" when they played them. They lost to Illinois who in turn got "manhandled" by USC.

The Championship Game should have been LSU vs. USC but that's another discussion (The BCS Fiasco)

Personally I am tired of seeing Ohio St in the Champoinship game each year. They did not deserve to go this year. The BIG Ten is down. Also, let's face it they got a REAL generous call when they beat Miami to win the Championship years ago.

Next year we will see what happens when the Buckeyes travel to USC. Finally a decent out of conference opponent.

Pete Booth

[jimpiano]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

The Big Ten is down. I will give you this: Tressel and his AD are smart as year in and year out (sine the Big Ten does not have a Conference Championship Game) sit back and wait for the SEC or the "other" conferences to "knock themselves out" and thus get into the National Championship game as evidenced by this year.

They were 10 and 1 but IMO that's not impressive because there out of conference schedule was a joke and the BIG Ten was down. Michigan was all "banged up" when they played them. They lost to Illinois who in turn got "manhandled" by USC.

The Championship Game should have been LSU vs. USC but that's another discussion (The BCS Fiasco)

Personally I am tired of seeing Ohio St in the Champoinship game each year. They did not deserve to go this year. The BIG Ten is down. Also, let's face it they got a REAL generous call when they beat Miami to win the Championship years ago.

Next year we will see what happens when the Buckeyes travel to USC. Finally a decent out of conference opponent.

Pete Booth

I don't know what you mean by sit back in wait. In 2002 the Buckeyes were undefeated going into the Fiesta Bowl and last year were also undefeated before facing Florida. This year they had one loss prior to the Championship game. In all three years they were ranked number one in the BCS.

Ohio State has home and homes for the next ten years with Southern Cal, Miami, Virginia Tech, California, and Oklahoma. And prior to this year played Texas home and away. This year Ohio State did, indeed, benefit from a down year for Washington of the Pac Ten and a number of Big Ten teams who had key injuries. But the Buckeyes did not lose to the likes of Appalachian State, Stanford, or Pittsburgh and therefore wound up playing in the BCS Title game, even though it was a rebuilding year, simply because all of the other contenders lost two or more times. A healthy LSU probably goes undefeated and WAS healthy in the title game. OSU will lose some juniors to the NFL, they always do, but returns almost everyone on offense.
They are already fifth in some preseason polls. The difference next year is Southern Cal and a stronger big ten, especially at Illinois, Wisconsin,Penn State and Michigan State. If Rodriguez gets his wide open offense going at Michigan, 2008 will be a great football year in the Big Ten.