Lessons Learned About Rats
 

13 Year old Babe Ruth game on Sunday. Every time team A had a man on base the team B pitcher, who looked like he had little or no pitching experience, was balking (not coming to a stop) on every pitch. Team A had no problem stealing so I let the balks go and told the team B coach after the first inning. Fast forward to the 7th inning. The game is relatively close (3 or 4 runs) when I hear the coach of team B complaining about the team A pitcher not coming to a stop.

The lessons learned are that no one gets a break and that no good deed goes unpunished.

AMEN! TRUER words have not been spoken.

And?

What do you think a coach's job is?

Coach B was gaining and advantage with your "no balk" call so he's happy.

He wants the balk call for his team - but at meaningful time - so he waits.

No different that letting a BOO go until it matters.

The most important thing I've learned is that a coach's job is to wring, squeeze, twist, cajole, beg, plead and whine for every concievable break and advantage for his team. You played right into that here.

Your JOB is to call the game. If the pitcher for team B can't pitch, let the coach take him out. He will learn to stop. Would you ignore obstruction on the big, dumb 1st baseman because he's clumsy?

Rattus Maximus
 

I didn't get the whole "rat" thing my first few years of umpiring.

I had this misguided "be a nice guy--no one will get mad at you" notion, until someone set me straight. He was a local guy who had umped about four seasons of organized ball.

He basically said what some of you have iterated: They will bend you, cajole you, suck up to you and [bleep] you at every turn.

Here's a great example: Big game, tightly contested, then things turn sour for the Weasels one inning, and their ace allows 3-4 runs.

After the inning, I (PU) am standing on the foul line, all by my lonesome. The Weasels' manager sidles up to me, all nice like.

"Jeeze," he says, "that kid [his pitcher] hasn't had that bad an inning all year. He's a nice kid."

So, like a dope, I answer him in kind. "Yeah, skip. He looked good to me the first coupla innings, and then he just seemed to lose it for a few batters."

Suddenly, Rattus changes his tone of voice. "And your lousy strike zone ain't helpin' him neither."

QED.

Ace in CT

I'm going to bookmark this thread because when someone wants to understand what it means to be a rat, I want to be able to find your answer quickly.

The proper way to handle the coach, though, is to ignore him.

In situations like this, when a pitcher is pretty green and does not come to a stop, I will say to him (if I'm BU) or have his catcher tell him (if I'm PU) to be sure to come to a stop. He gets one freebie. After that he gets balked. You would be surprised how fast they learn how to stop when you keep advancing the runners 90 ft. and their coach gets on their butts.

OK. Glad to help. :D

Why is why I did not respond to Rich's post.:)

Good one, good one.

What it has become is to use every conceivable method possible including lying, cheating, threatening, begging and child abuse to obtain what he feels is an advantage for the team, through which he receives an inflated sense of self-worth and validation.

...squeak squeak squeak

Way over the top on that one Garth.

I think it is beyond the pale, myself. But, unfortunately, many still turn a blind eye to it.

I have witnessed subtle forms of child abuse by managers and coaches during youth ball games. It rears its ugly head sometimes when the supposed grown-ups misuse and abuse their authority.

In horror I watched a 14 year old starting pitcher begin to cry and grimmace in pain during the 6th inning of a slugfest. My guess is that he'd already thrown 100 pitches or more during the game. His rat for a coach asked for time and only came out as far as the foul line and began to taunt his own pitcher. The converstation went something like this.


"What's the matter, does your arm hurt?"

"Yes."

"Do you want to come out of the game?"

"Yes."

"Well it ain't happening, so suck it up and strike somebody out!"


There are no words to describe how I felt as a parent of players the same age.


Tim.

There are no subtle forms of child abuse.

What I meant by subtle is that unless your looking for it, you may not recognize it as child abuse. The example Tim gave is one form. In other words, just because there are no bruises or contusions on a kid, doesn't mean there isn't abuse happening.

When my oldest was 7 (he is now 19), the head coach yelled at his son so viciously the son peed in his pants in the batter's box. The son was so traumatized by his dad's tirade he did not realize he had wet himself. The father was replaced as coach in mid-season.

That young man was an excellent ball player, but he quit after that season. He is now a promising 20 year old umpire.

I’m startled by the degree of rancor expressed toward coaches on this site. Do the most critical of you truly see yourselves as guardians of the game, and coaches as its enemies? How do you justify all the name-calling (rats, cheaters, liars, child abusers, etc.) in the same posts where you paint yourselves as victims of similar offenses?

David,

You screwed up on this one. Call the game by the rules. Invoking the God Rule just confuses people and takes away from the consistency the rulebook provides. Not calling the game by the rules is what umpires do when they haven't read the rulebook or don't know the rules.

Now, as for the attitude towards coaches and players that some of the people on here express, I agree it is disgusting. Anybody who doesn't respect what players and coaches do and isn't there to serve them should get the f out of umpiring. I am a ballplayer myself, and I can't stand when I have umpires that don't give it 100%.

CanadaUmp, that was very well said. I lurk around this board for a few laughs and to learn something now and then (the umps here certainly do know the rules, which I respect as a coach). What's sad is the pure disdain some of these folks have for coaches and players, the very people who are there to create the actual game - this attitude shows a complete lack of disrespect for the game of baseball as a whole. This is noticeable in this thread and the thread where a coach came to ask a question about how best to handle a situation and was treated like pure crap.

Of course, I am sure these folks are in the minority. Just like there are some pretty horrid coaches, we all know there are some pretty horrid umpires - be it in their rule knowledge, ability to get judgment calls correct, game management, or just overall miserable attitude.

I always teach my kids to respect umpires, it really is a shame new umpires are not being taught to respect the game as a whole.

Cheers!

The degree of rancor of which you speak is well-earned by the coaching community at large. In general, the majority of coaches are rats, and they do cheat and lie to achieve their objective, which only concerns winning the game. They abuse game officials constantly, but I guess you think that it's ok to do this. And umpires most assuredly are the guardians of the game. We are the only impartial participants, and are necessary to the integrity of the sport. Without us, games would be chaos and meaningless wastes of time.

Newsflash Slick, most of us are or were ballplayers. To successfully umpire, you have to approach it from a different perspective than that of a player.

It has never happened to me but I would call time, have a discussion with the HC about the verbal exchange I just heard, wait for him to say something personal or profane to me and then I would toss his sorry 8ss. I would then sleep very well that night.

The ejection report would be accurate, coach asked, pitcher said, coach responded, I called him over for discussion and he said something personal/profane to me so I tossed him. Yes, I baited him. Yes, I will do it again.

I was going to suggest finding a way to toss the pitcher. He could use the down time for the rest of the game and the suspension period.

Does that include the sandlot games everyone claims to remember with fondness? Those games had neither a coach nor an umpire yet I don't recall anyone claiming they were meaningless wastes of time.

In a 14 year old game, me and that coach would have had a private conversation regarding this pitcher (assuming I feel that he is risking injury on the mound). I'm probably in the minority here, which I understand. As an umpire, but more importantly as an adult, I'm interjecting myself into this one. If I was that kid's parent, I'm pulling my kid off the field that instant. Most parents would. Now I'm assuming the pitcher's parent did not hear this, and perhaps I'm the only other adult that did. What happens if this kid gets hurt? Its certainly on the Coach, but I would feel guilty as well for putting my job in front of the wellbeing of a kid.

Chances are this coach would go ballistic on me during our private conversation, I'd toss him, and then the assistant, who always in these sorts of situations realizes the manager is a maniac, will take the kid out and we will go on. UIC will get a report, I may get a "don't do that again from him", but it will pass on to the league president, and that coach wouldn't be coaching again. And a kid may have avoided serious injury.

It goes without saying that at JV, V, Legion, etc. level I would never do this, but then again, I don't think that it would ever happen at any other level than the one Tim described.

Just my two cents. Let the flaming of me begin. :o

Steve,

My experience is somewhat different than yours.

While there are most certainly "Rat Coaches" who will sacrifice their dignity, self-respect, integrity, common decency, and anything else they think necessary for the sole purpose of winning the game at any cost, in my experience those types of coaches are in the minority rather than the majority.

They are certainly more memorable than coaches who choose to conduct themselves otherwise.

I find myself pretty much in agreement with these statements.

Too many people have a fundamental misunderstanding of the process of human perception and the degree to which impartiality contributes to the relative accuracy of that process.

Having a competent and impartial arbiter participating in the game improves the overall quality of the game for all who participate or even observe.

When I was a child, I would often play "pick-up" games with whatever kids in the neighborhood I could find. The games would often end chaotically, most commonly over an irredeemable dispute over whether a player was out or safe or some such thing.

But, in retrospect, I wouldn't say they were "meaningless wastes of time".

JMO.

JM

[QUOTE=spokanelurker]I’m startled by the degree of rancor expressed toward coaches on this site. Do the most critical of you truly see yourselves as guardians of the game, and coaches as its enemies? How do you justify all the name-calling (rats, cheaters, liars, child abusers, etc.) in the same posts where you paint yourselves as victims of similar offenses?[/QUOTE

If you have been around long enough you should have noticed how the umps on this forum are nasty to ANYONE that comes here even their own kind. Just follow how this thread has devolved into a personal urinating match over nothing. I stopped posting here b/c of it. So now I suppose I'll get the inevitable flames. But before you do that remember: if the shoe fits.......

Yes, it is. And when you've umpired as many games as I have, which would be quite a feat in itself, then perhaps you would have a much different perspective. You will have worked many seasons of baseball, and dealt with every kind of manager, coach, and player imaginable, and will have noted a recurring theme concerning the behavior of the majority. It's not a small few who are rats, it's a small few who are not.

But they were what they were. Pick-up games. I played in pick-up games nearly every weekend until I stopped playing ball (and started umpiring instead). That is what MLB games would become without umpires, pick-up games. Nothing wrong with pick-up games. It would probably be a hoot for awhile to watch the meltdown, but it wouldn't count for much of anything without the order and realism that having an arbiter provides.

Rancor? Have you been around this board long enough to discern the emotional states of the various posters?

Umpires call coaches rats for a reason. Naturally, it's annoying when a coach comes to an official's board and complains that an official's call "cost him the game." Aside from being total sh!te, he's begging us to throw the official under the bus, based only on his biased account. What would one expect there, open arms?

Anyone who fails to understand how coaches "work" officials is either naive, ignorant, or insensible.

Long-time coach, and proud of it. Now merely an observer, and friend of the game. Byron, San Diego and MrUmpire, thanks for proving my point. And as far as wasting bandwith here, freedom of speech, and all that.

Well,
 

spokane:

Just maybe you're one of the tools that Garth has told us about in his wonderful stories of rats in Spokane.

"If players and coaches didn't lie and cheat you wouldn't need umpires."

Factual statement after working my 39th season I have documented proof of this.

This is an umpire site . . . when rats come here they are free meat.

Regards,

Wondered how long it would take someone to make the Spokane connection with Garth. Love the name-calling, Tim--reference my first post! Again, thanks for supporting my point.

No. Umpires are only needed once adult coaches get involved.

Please reference the First Amendment and then please tell us how freedom of speech applies to a privately owned message board.

spokane:
 

And "eteamz" would be a great place for you to go.

I do not understand why coaches think they have a value posting to an umpire website. It just makes me chuckle . . .

And spokane (species: ratamusamoungus):

" . . . and friend of the game."

Don't you dare think you have anymore of this understanding of the game than any of us.

Regards,

Maybe just you, Tim, for one. Regards.

Man,
 

God I love the "ignore" function.

Peace at last.

I Love Turtles,

Newsflash Steve - the same applies to managing.

I nearly fell off my chair laughing when reading the whole post about being guardians of the game. The job is an umpire is to call balls and strikes and ensure a game is played fairly - the second this job erupts into something more is where we get the big egos.

Like I said, I always teach my kids to respect umpires. In the same way you call us child abusers and cheaters, I could call you racists (Bruce Froemming) and power-hungry losers. I don't do that because I realize the majority of umps are in it for the kids and do not possess the attitude displayed on this board.

One problem, I think, with baseball is the lack of penalties. Officials from other sports have experience dealing with intolerable behaviour because they have varied penalties to apply that are not quite as severe as removing someone from a ball game (in the real world you can't just toss someone who upsets you). Also, remember that coaches have little power to control a bad or power hungry umpire (they do exist, I have read some of your posts about bad partners).

Coaches, although you may see them as rats, are the ones who are shaping youth by teaching baseball skills but also life skills. Umpires do not do that. Most coaches also do it out of a love of the game and a desire to work with young people - unlike you, they are not paid. It's a shame you don't respect that.

Over the years I have grown close with a few umpires who have called my games. I have told them about some of the posts and attitudes here and have found them to be equally disgusted. I encourage some of you coaches to do the same; you will realize this is a phenomenom unique to this board and the type of umpire drawn to such online discussions.

Cheers!

Tim, you know the rules. Thus, if I needed to know something like how many feet ahead of the plate a player can be when bunting, I would ask you. You also know about umpire mechanics, substitutions, and perhaps a little bit about game management (although some of the folks on this board make me think otherwise).

An understanding of the game, however, also includes an ability to teach skills, deal with players, set strategy (offensive and defensive), run practices, improve a team's running game, decide when to bunt/hit and run, give signals to players, and provide an overall positive experience to anyone associated with a team. I would assume you have very little clue about these aspects of the game.

Don't you dare think you have anymore of this understanding of the game than me and other good coaches.

Point? You never made a point. Your first post in the thread was:
That's 2 questions and an expression of being startled. Nope, no point there.

Do you have a point?

You truly have no idea what you're talking about. Let's take you at your word that YOU respect umpires and you teach your kids to do so.

Your experience and perspective is from that point of view. You make an amazingly faulty assumption that since YOU feel this way, most coaches do. Assuming, again, that you truly do believe what you say, you are, sir, EXTREMELY in the minority. Walk a mile in our shoes if you wish to presume that our assertion that MOST coaches are rats is false. You'll make it perhaps half a year before you realize that most coaches are, indeed, exactly as we've described them to you.

~tsk, tsk, tsk~
 

"An understanding of the game, however, also includes an ability to teach skills, deal with players, set strategy (offensive and defensive), run practices, improve a team's running game, decide when to bunt/hit and run, give signals to players, and provide an overall positive experience to anyone associated with a team. I would assume you have very little clue about these aspects of the game."

You know what they say about assuming anything.

Hmm, you've jumped off quite a high cliff here.

As an ex-college and professional player I know a little about the game. Arguably maybe more than you.

Both rats and umpires try hard to make their knowledge mutally exclusive.

I am not some untrained small diamond schmoo . . .

While I don't dare to think I have MORE of an understanding of the game I do know just as much as you, mate.

AND there are at least six to 10 umpires that post here that have an equal knowledge AND there is only one coach who posts here that knows ANYTHING about umpiring.

I will expand my ignore list once more . . .

I Like Turtles,

Your entire post makes me want to vomit. Thanks for the misinformation.

You are pretty stupid to think that umpires don't know the game inside and out. Many have managed, coached, and played the game for years.

Why don't you just get off this site if you don't like what is said here. Go hang out with your disgusted umpire buddies.

Makes me want to puke, I'm friggin' serious.

If you're going to lump all coaches into one group wouldn't it be proper to lump all umpires also?

If you want to not include small field beginner umpires shouldn't you also not include small filed beginner coaches?

Some coaches do idiotic things. That doesn't mean all do.

Most umpires know the game inside and out. Some are "less aware". Or are all those "high five outs" and similar posts not true?

If you want to claim the high ground on fairness and integrity, do it across the board.

If you're going to lump all coaches into one group wouldn't it be proper to lump all umpires also?

No kidding. I've been taunted and treated like dirt over the past year, both here and at umpire.org. Never once did I generalize a few forum jerks to the entire umpiring population. On the other hand, we've got some of these same jerks stereotyping all coaches as rats who cheat to win ballgames. What gives?

If you ask me, anyone who hates all coaches but continues to make a career out of umpiring their ballgames probably doesn't have much going on in their life outside of umpiring. I've got one of two options for people like TimC who don't like or respect the very same people that they are on the ball diamond to serve:

1) Get your fat *** out of umpiring.
2) Learn to respect the coaches who are paying you, and deal properly with the troublesome ones.

I do not care what sport or what level you work, coaches have agendas. Coaches are inherently bias and very few of them ever approach the rules or a position other than how it affected them personally. And baseball is the only sport where it is common place for coaches to create a conflict so that they are perceived as "sticking up for their team."

I hate to say "all" about anyone that displays a specific behavior. But from a baseball umpire standpoint is really hard not to use that when talking about how coaches are idiots and they complain about things they clearly do not see or have any idea about.

Peace

ahhhh, the squeeking of RATS. So pleasant in the summertime.


If you RODENTS are so self-assured, confident and SMART, WHY do you feel COMPELLED to post on an UMPIRE site all about how WOUNDED you are?

Do UMPIRES infest your COACHES forums and indignently tell you how to BUNT the runner to the next base or WHEN to pull that tired RHP, or how to hit the CURVE BALL?

COURSE NOT. Because that is YOUR province, and the APPLICATION of the RULES are OURS. Now quitcher*****in and go give a clinic on STEALING SIGNS or something on ETEAMZ.

If there are any coaches here who have coached or played on the professional level...feel free to let me know...and I'll be glad to let you know why professional managers are rats. I'll also be willing to compare and contrast your "understanding and knowledge" of baseball with mine.

Simply put: "Nice guys finish last" (a famous quote from a famous coach) is simply another way of saying "you have to be a Rat to be a winner".

"Nice guys finish last" is a hall-of-fame coach stating that you have to be a dick to be a winner. A dick to your own players, sometimes, a dick to the other team and especially a dick to the umpires.

While I don't know if that statement is true or not, I can conclusively state that 80% or more of professional managers believe it to be true.

I know that in my full time job, if all my customers were liars, cheaters, whiners and child abusers I would find another job and another industry.

I will not put myself in a category of hating all coaches. I will say I respect only a handful of coaches. But to address your little points I will say this to you.

#1--I am far from fat. I am in better shape than many players I umpire.

#2--I do not know any coaches that pay me. I get paid by the conference, assignor or school. Dealing with coaches is a necessary evil.

Peace

Umpiring is not a full time job for most of us. So what is your point? ;)

Peace

The best quote on this subject. I do have to side with some of those who feel the Baseball portion of these boards is usually in attack mode. I do not work baseball but do officiate both basketball and volleyball and have coached baseball for 10 years. I must be one of the few coaches who as a fellow official gives all due repect to the umpires working my game. If I do not understand a call I ask a question. I do not openly discuss or comment on judgement calls. It bothers me to listen to our parents complain about a call against our team to the point of going over to them and telling them to basically shut their mouths and keep their opinions to themselves. I realize from working other sports that the angle I see may not be the same as the official but 99% of the time they are both closer to the play and in position to make the call. I appreciate the work that these men and women do in all types of weather so that my team can have a fair game. Many of the people I work with in basketball and volleyball are also baseball umpires. If I have a game situation I may talk with one of them....after the game for future reference. This is similar to a coach posting to this forum. We all run into situations where a coach is ill informed about a rule. I guess this might be a cause for the feelings on this board toward coaches. I've never seen an umpire act the way many on this board seem to post on here. With few exceptions every umpire I've dealt with is always professional. I applaud those coaches who post here to learn more from the other side of the plate.

Can't we all just get along?

If all my customers were liars, cheaters, whiners and child abusers I would find another job and another industry.

I do not consider coaches customers. If you are an assignor they might be. But to an independent contractor that can pick and choose where I go and whom I work for, I do not see that same connection. When the money is not the only motivation for umpiring as it would be with "customers" in a business, I disagree with your analogy you are trying to make with umpiring and a job or business.

Not liking one aspect of a job does not mean I will quit the job. I do not like everything family members do, that does not mean I will not hang around anyone in my family because of a couple of flaws that I personally see. I might think coaches are most of those things you just described them to be, but what they complain about is not going to change my call. It just shows I identify their behavior and we move on. If they do not move on, they will not be around until the end of the game. I know I will be around until the game is over.

Peace

LAWUMP has said it perfectly, and has clearly a LOT OF EXPERIENCE in the PEST CONTROL BUSINESS. RATS have AGENDAS, and are BIASED de facto. They will do WHATEVER they can to win including LYING, SUCKING UP, and STABBING a unsuspecting umpire in the back if thats what it takes. They dont have a JOB if they dont WIN. They would PUT THEIR MOTHER ON A STREET CORNER to WIN.

The UMPIRES have NO agenda other than to the RULES. They shouldnt give a FIG who wins, only that both sides are only allowed to CHEAT, SCREW EACH OTHER, and play BUSH BASEBALL EQUALLY. (thats a small joke-ok). Do UMPIRES make mistakes??? G-D they do! But theres no AGENDA, or SABOTAGE PLAN to make 1 side lose, despite what RATS say.

I dont take any RAT behavior PERSONALLY. I just KNOW What they are, WHAT they do, and HOW they act. Like the ANIMALS they resembel, they are always TRUE to thier NATURE. Do you HATE a dog for licking its ****? COURSE NOT. ITs what dogs DO!

So, when RATS try to justifie their behavior with BULLSPIT, we UMPIRES see it for what it is. And SAY SO. especialy when they COME to a UMPIRES forum to spout NONSENSE. Ask a RULES question get it answered... JEHOVAH KNOWS we need more RODENTS with better rules knowlege.

BUT SQUEEK, WHINE, CRY ABOUT THE SAND IN YOUR VAGINA about that the last umpire who GOT YOU on that BALK call when your pitcher aparently never HEARD of a "DISERNABLE PAUSE", and how it COST you the OMYGODWORLDFREEKIN 7U CHAMPEENSHIP OF THE OUTER UNIVERSE, then SCURRY OFF and NEST SOMEWHERE ELSE.

The Borat movie taught me the proper pronunciation is "va-zheen." HTH.

Coaches are not my customers. And therein lies the difference between my perception on this issue, and yours. If you walk onto the field expecting the coaches to be your customers, and treating them accordingly, you are doing the game a huge disservice.

If there were no teams, no coaches, no players how many assignors would be calling you?
I don't want to argue over who the customer is in the umpire world, that wasn't my point, but I think you are naive if you think the assignor is your ultimate customer.


Everyone is an independent contractor and can pick and choose where they go.


I feel sad for anyone whose only motivation is money, no matter what the business.
But you see my point even if you don't recognize it.
If all or most of the people within the enviorment in which you practiced your trade were liars, cheaters, whiners and child abusers why would any one want to voluntarily stay in that enviorment? Unless of course you were a social worker.




I don't think you were the one saying all coaches were liars, cheaters, whiners and child abusers. So unless the shoe fits perhaps my point isn't directed or meant for you and therefore does not resonate with you.

I really love when a Rat gets "whacked" on this forum. He starts to quiver and squirm on the floor, then all the other Rats come out to try to help him and they too wind up a quivering mass of jelly in the corner! :D

~Phock!~
 

"I feel sad for anyone whose only motivation is money, no matter what the business."

I have found a place for you. Move to "the State of Portland" . . . outside of SF the most liberal place in America. If not Communist at least Socialist . . .

Your philosophy as listed above will fit perfectly.

I work ONLY for money . . . be it my job or umpiring ("the money" is followed closely by "the power").

It is odd for me to see someone tell me "my motivation" for working . . .

Again Don, we see umpiring (and now the world) differently.

Is there no question left why we are on opposite ends of every issue?

Regards,

BTW, I would STILL have a cold adult beverage with you.

WOW Ozzy
 

I want more of "Canuk" and "SpokaneLuker" two of the farthest "out theres" we have had.

Truly pieces of work.

Regards,

Don,

Should the opportunity present itself, I would strongly encourage you to take advantage. It will be time "well spent".

Tim,

Given your recent fondness for terrapins, I couldn't help but wonder if you were able to get one of those nifty "Zombie" facepaint jobs.

John

John,

I'm hoping we can lure Tee to "The Bend" to take in a few pre-game cold ones with us this Fall. The tickets are on me.


Tim.

OK. Here I am--what do you want? And what exactly made me one of the "farthest out theres" you've had on the board? Although my subsequent posts portray me, quite accurately, as a smart ***, my original one was relatively innocuous, and while it has been much ridiculed, it still hasn't been answered.

And the gods smile on Tee and Ozzy....

JM

Your original post was answered, by me, in post # 23 of this thread. It needs no further answer, as mine was quite succinct. Go back to page 2 and look it up.

Hmmm, it seems that this Rat is not smart enough to hide in the shadows with his friends. I think he needs another "whack" from the big stick!

Here's a tip, Rat! Don't go behind the refrigerator because Tee put an extra special Rat Trap back there. You know, the kind that will just about take your head off in one strike! Or worse, you could get your leg caught and we can all sit and watch you chew your leg off while we throw things at you!

Tim,

Works for me. Except for the "on you" part; I believe it's my turn.

John

Hiding in the shadows, Ozzie? That's you, buddy! Go back and read my first post, and your latest one, and if the definition of the term "irony" eludes you, look it up. You're the man!

I wish that there was more decency from a few people on this board. Tim stands out in my mind the most, but also Ozzy and a number of others bring really poor attitudes to these boards.

Ha-ha-ha

If you can find them, John, I'll humor you and let you flip for them this time. If not they're on me once again. Love the clock by the way!


Tim.

I think that if you're willing to just listen to what some of the more grizzled vets of this board have to say you'll find them to be a great bunch of guys. It's ironic that you'd mention the two members you just did as ones with bad attitudes. When I first came here they were all over me for posting dumb garbage. Now, along with Steve they're the ones I consult with the most on issues away from the forum. I've yet to have any one of them not give me an encouraging word when needed or a kick in the arse if that's what they felt was warranted. Just hang in there and you'll see what I mean.


Tim.

Yeah, both those guys post in the nude.

So more power to you Tee. If you won't do something unless you are paid, that's your choice.

But there are multitudes that do not subscribe to that position and they are not lesser people for being different.

We have a youth "baseball" program consisting, this year, of 27 Little League baseball teams, five girls softball teams, and four "teener" baseball teams. All volunteer.

Our league started in 1952 and has operated continuously and successfully ever since. And in all that time, not one person be it administrator, concession operations, coaches, or umpires has ever been paid one red cent. Yet people continue to volunteer their time and give their money to support the program. I'm glad we have people who will work for something other than money.

And Tee, we're not alone. There are thousands upon thousands of volunteer organizations around the country who thrive because there are people willing to DONATE their time and efforts to the success of whatever their program is.

And, Tee, "different" and "wrong" are not synonyms. Accept people's motivation for what it is and don't reject them or look upon them with disdain because their motivation is not what you wish it to be or thnk it should be.

You started this 80 post (so far) diatribe about rats with this seemingly harmless post. Let me offer a suggestion for the next game where a young 13 year pitcher of little or no experience will not come to a stop.

After the half inning approach the HC, tell him his pitcher is not coming to a stop when runners are on base, ie a balk. You haven't called it because it is obvious that he his young and inexperienced and doesn't know any better. But this is an easy thing to instruct so you expect him to do so before he takes the mound again and if the pitcher will not come to a stop in the next inning you are going to balk him every time. A 13 year old should be able to understand STOP, otherwise he will never be a good pitcher.

If they are stealing so easily you may be actually saving time to balk the runner to 2B than letting the play go on. And, if the pitcher will STOP, for different amounts of time, it should lead to less steal attempts.

Give the other HC the same discussion if deserving and then there will be no need for the 7th inning complaint and you will have saved some future umpire a pain also.

Off the field admission...
 

I'd never even think this on the field. But I understand why rats hate umpires. Its the attitudes that have been evident on baseball fields, and quite frankly, threads like these. But at the same time, I understand why umpires hate rats, because quite frankly, I hate most of them all the time, and all of them when I'm on the field. As a fellow member of this board told me today, quoting Mark Hirschbeck: "Squash 'em all like F***ing bugs".

What concerns me is that the next time I go umpire a game, a coach that has read this thread, or experienced similar conjecture or attitudes from umpires in the past (which certainly has happened), will lump me, the umpire, into a larger group of egotistical maniac umpires who hate all coaches as openly as we see in this thread (I do hate all coaches while on the field, but I keep that secret to myself). So now my day at the field has been made harder by other umpires, in a very similar way that it is made harder when the umpire in a team's previous game misapplied a rule and when I make the correct ruling I get a s***storm. The coach stereotypes all umpires the same way umpires stereotype all coaches.

Who cares what came first? Coaches hating umpires, or umpires hating coaches? Its a part of the game, seperate yourself from this nonsense of worrying about it, and go call the game. And be ready to "squash em like bugs" if neccessary.

I don't hate coaches. I was one once (12 years). I understand their motivations for arguments, and sometimes their frustrations. I think it is a plus to have once been a coach. Their arguments don't bother me. I know I can get rid of them if I need to. I don't hold grudges.

I know some coaches who never argue. If these coaches come out there is a 90% chance you screwed the call. But they will discuss calmly and hear what you have to say and go back to the dugout without busting a chair up or thowing one 50 feet. And then there are coaches who come out when you know darn well the call was an easy one and you wonder why they are there to argue.

I am not aware of a coach who hates me and I certainly don't hate any coach I know. There are some I admire and respect and some I am wary of, but none I hate.

Don I work three sports, two of them I work college ball and I have yet to answer to any coach about anything. Most supervisors I work for have expectations and when you meet those expectations; they tend to support you to coaches. I also have never been hired in a conference because a coach liked me. I have been around the block and I have had some very serious conflicts with some coaches over the years only to have the supervisor completely support me. Why? Because I followed procedures and expectations of the supervisor I am currently working for. Coaches have agendas and they will get mad about anything that does not go their way. When you follow common procedures or rules, the supervisor can easily support you. So you can say the coach is the customer, but not if you know what the hell you are doing they are not.

I do not feel sorry for anyone that works for money. Money pays bills, buys things like houses and cars and puts people through college and might even help fun a business. So a lot of people will put up with a lot of things because there is money as apart of deal. I know I would not work many places unless the pay is right.

Do not police officers deal with those kinds of people every day, but they still love their jobs right? I really do not know why you are so stuck on the opinion people have about coaches. Just because many think coaches are scoundrels, does not take away from the enjoyment of our job. I do not trust many coaches but that just means I know who and what I am dealing with when things do not go their way. I do not trust most coaches and know that when things do not go their way they will try to whine, complain and even tell me how to do my job. Then I have responses for all those things. And if I cannot get them to understand they are stepping out of line, they will not be around. Then I do not have to worry about what they think for the rest of the day.

I even know as an official that I will have to work with other officials that I do not like. If I was so worried about what everyone thought I would just stay at home all day and every day.

Peace

More to come........

Quite frankly, more to come...

But if the coaches you memntion are reading this thread and you think that your secret is secret...forget it, more to come...

:eek: Imagine that (psst) your secret is secret with me...unless coaches are reading this and...forget it, more to come....

Sounder advice in a post I have never been more confused over. :p :D :eek:

Sir, we will have none of that sane talk about the real world that few on this "I hate Rats" forum will admit to. :p

Here's another viewpoint. You have learned that people are systematically dishonest. Wow. "Welcome to the world, won't you come on in."

Look at this forum, the dishonesty and the disingenuity is a perfect study in human nature.

Oh, I can hear the Forum Elite (100,000 post Members and their Poodle Pups) bleating about their honesty..all the "rats" are the dishonest ones. :eek: :p

When Mr. Rattus said what he said, you had two choices. Be hurt over the fact that he was being dishonest ( a truly irrational view of humans) or be comfortable and adjust. Don't stop having these talks, coaches with agendas are everywhere. Because if you are realistic, you are also prepared.

"Coach, here I thought we were good buddies. I suppose there is no use in speaking to each other again. It would be too painful. Understood?"

Well Tee does but I keep my G-string on when I post! :D :D

Heh, heh, heh!
A poor attitude is better than no attitude at all!

As I said once before, if you hate the attitude here, how do you deal with the attitudes on the field?

You are welcome to post but no one is twisting your arm to do so. If you post, you open yourself to praise or ridicule. And when you show us that you can take it like a man, we will treat you as such. If you act like a spoiled child and whine, pi$$ and moan, you will be treated accordingly! It is taking you a long time to learn this, but I am confident that one day, you will understand. But for now, you will go back into the penalty box.

Tim, your threat of putting me on an ignore list is particularly humorous. You will do no such thing. In the same way you open this thread, you will continue to read my posts. We all know how this works. In the real world, my friend, you cannot wave your arms and eject someone whenever they upset you.

I give you some credit for at least admitting that I know AS MUCH as you about the game, although I'm unsure how you can at least make that assumption without knowing who I am or what level I work at.

It is true that us coaches have agendas. These "agendas" go beyond winning a game, but include things like teaching, mentoring, organizing, and providing a memorable experience for players and families. Do you really think most of us get into this business (and, unlike you, we are not paid) for the pure joy of winning a few ballgames?

Looking at your attitude, please tell me how you would motivate someone new and young to get into coaching (which I would argue is THE most important role in baseball today) - if you have already pre-judged them as being a rat, liar, etc., and will continually walk onto a baseball field with this, frankly prejudiced, chip on your shoulder.

If you folks were in the majority then I would really fear for the game. I take solice in knowing that this is not the case and that your attempts to "belittle" us coaches is just a mob mentality coming from the type of person who is attracted to "Internet umpiring".

As to why coaches post and read this board, it is because it provides us with another medium to learn about the game - maybe if you folks did the same your experience on the field would be a lot more positive. We can learn a lot from each other if you just lost the attitude.

And again, I always teach my kids to respect umpires. Maybe you should give us the same courtesy.

See ya tomorrow!

My take on the whole debate: Coaches (all of them) and umpires (all of them) have different "goals" for the game (little "g" game -- not the big "G" Game of Baseball). That leads to the conflict. And, while not every coach acts like a "rat" during every game, (almost) all are capable of it and we've been hit over the head with a 2x4 often enought that when we see a coach approaching with one we don't ask "what are you going to build?"

And, while not every umpire acts like a redass every time, all that stick in the "profession" learn how to do it as a matter of survival, and you see it enough to think that we're "all" looking to get you.

Shrug.

I can't speak for Tim, but why should umpires as such be concerned with motivating people to go into coaching? As fans of the game in general, perhaps, but not as umpires.

As for prejudice: it serves the end of impartiality for umpires to be skeptical of (I do not say hostile toward) coaches, who often try to manipulate us. That is: our skeptical attitude makes us better umpires. Isn't that a good thing? To declare that this is "prejudice" is mere name-calling.

Typical rat mantra: "why can't we all get along (as long as I'm getting MY way)?"

TIM TIm Tim tim

I thought we were making such good progress, I really felt a bond growing between us after finding common ground on parents yelling at umps.
Now I don't think you're even trying.


First things first.


A more capitalistic, fiscal and social conservative man you will never have the privilege of insulting.
Whatever you have inferred or assumed from my post you're wrong.



So your "only motivation" is not money, but also power, so you'll be happy to know that in this case I do not feel sad for you.

I never told anyone what their motivation is, was or should be I only said "I feel sad for anyone whose only motivation is money"
Nowhere did I infer what motivates you.


You clearly are motivated to paint me as your opposite regardless of my actual views.
I'm trying so hard to ingratiate myself to you but you keep pushing me away.
Sometimes I think I'm the only one trying in this relationship.



I'll take you up on it the next time I venture into the land of Karl

Darn guys, it's the coach's job to try to gain an advantage. It's yours to push back. It's a form of negotiation, though one must admit it gets heated at times.

When your kid misses curfew it is accompanied by an excuse that is presented as reasonable. This can create loud discussions. You don't buy it and ground them. But you don't go on the internet and claim your kid is a rat for trying to get you to see it their way.

I think it is unfortunate that some clearly fail to recognize that the attitude with which they walk onto a field is more often than not clearly evident to everyone else there. And that applies to players, coaches, and umpires. If you are in "confrontation mode" from the outset, it can do nothing but create a confrontation situation which is rarely a good thing. I don't know how you can possibly walk onto a field with the attitude all coaches are rats and all players are baby rats and not think it effects how you call a game and I would submit that it effects it in a bad way. Why the seeming prevalent belief that one must have this sort of attitude to correctly call a game? I just don't get it.
Personally I try to remember that the coaches have a vested interested in seeing the play the way the want to see it. It may be because it's part of their livelyhood, or an ego thing, or simply because his kid is on the team. Yeah, some coaches are a pain, but I really think the ones that are truly worthy of the rat title are few and far between unless I adopt the attitude that any question is an assault on my integrity which will escalate the confrontation. Got news for ya, it's not. They are doing their job just as I'm doing mine of being an impartial enforcer of the rules. If I begin to drift into the "this guy and all like him are rats" thinking then I can't see how impartiallity is possible.
So to end this long boring post, I'll simply relate a recent story about a coach coming out to question a call. He didn't like it, it cost him a run, but I gave him his say. In response I phrased my answer so that he clearly knew what I saw, why I ruled in such a manner and made it clear I didn't hold it against him. As he turned to leave, I heard this comment from the nearby stands (his side btw). "Wow, an umpire with a sense of humor. I didn't know we had any of those around here".

Even those of us who realize that players are rats, and that coaches are rats and coke soakers, walk on the field with professionalism. We cheerfully greet the coaches, shake their hands at the plate or whatever. I don't know many successful umpires that are openly hostile to the participants.

There is a big difference between knowing that they are rats (which is a very generic term), and actually letting that affect your judgment.

I have related the story of the partner who came to the plate meeting and started with, "okay, this is your one warning right now, don't argue with me or your gone, do you understand?" I cringed when I heard this, and would never want to enter into a game with this kind of chip on my shoulder. After the game, I immediately called my assignor and had this guy scratched from ever working with me again.

I believe in being really easy-going until you do something rat-like, and then I will pounce all over you like a hobo on a ham sandwich. But I do not come onto a baseball field with any kind of confrontational attitude. I always give the coaches every opportunity to do their jobs. It's not until they step over the line that we have any problem.

OK J you've goaded me into it:

Kings to you for your officiating prowess and and your upward mobility. (No sarcasm intended)

Fortunately for you there were no business marketing and economic questions on the test.


Follow the money J. I'm sure your assignors are great guys but are they paying out of their personal accounts?

There are 3 entities in the equation. League/team > Assignor > Umpire
Where does the money come from? Who hires whom?
The customer is the one paying for the services. How many middle men that payment goes through before it gets to the service provider doesn't matter.



A general contractor(assignor) is hired to build a building(provide umpiring services), the GC(assignor) sub contracts the fire alarm work(umpiring responsibilities) to an independent fire alarm specialist(FAS)(Umpire). The fire alarm specialist(umpire) installs the system(calls the game) in accordance to specifications(ruleset) provided by the building owner(customer)(league/team). But then the owner(customer)(league/team) decides he wants to eliminate part of the system to save money(wants judgements in his favor). FAS(umpire) says I can't do that,(my integrity is at stake) it's not safe or per code.(Owner)(customer) gets very mad and insists that it's done his way(gets tossed). GC(assignor) steps in and supports the FAS (umpire)because he knows the system has to be put in per code.(knows the customer was a butt and deserved it)
The fact that the owner(customer)(league/team) gets mad or the fact that the GC(assignor) supports or doesn't support the FAS(umpire) does not change who is the owner (customer)(league/team).
Whether the FAS(umpire) is competent or not does not change who is the customer.



Reread my post.
I did not suggest anyone work anywhere if the money wasn't right. In fact I never suggested anyone do anything.
And the implication that I feel sorry for anyone that works for money is plain wrong. You have better comprehension skills than that, please use them.



I simply stated that I would not work a job where everyone or most everyone were liars, cheaters, whiners and child abusers. I also asked the question why would anyone? There's obviously an answer, I just asked the question.
Everyone else seems to be able to share their opinion on coaches, I stated mine albeit as an inference. Why does that mean I'm "stuck on the opinion people have about coaches?"

Am I to presume now that an umpire, not a coach, that doesn't buy into the 'all coaches, players and fans are rats, whiners, liars, cheaters and child abusers theory' that said umpire by default becomes a RAT?

Or are you just jealous cause Tim and I have a thing goin?


BTW
Did a 14 travel game solo last night.
Total of 5 coaches
23 players
approx 40 spectators

One run game
2 bangers at first, a caught stealing at 2nd and have no idea if I was right or wrong(that happens on solo games) and a couple missed ball/strike calls.

Not one word from a single player or coach.
One fan in top of 7th yelled that I was blowing the game after a punch out.
Wasn't even one of my missed calls:D

I prefer the Innocent until proven guilty approach. It seems to work well in other aspects of our society.

Good post! Try as we may to get along, coaches always find a way to throw us off track, push our buttons, and then get tossed. Gouda or Swiss, Monsieur?

Don and Canuck have both earned a trip to Ignore Land, to join the other two clowns that have been put there. I hope I don't run out of space there.

Good news! The more you add, the more space you have!

We should start a thread sharing our ignore lists...

Don,

Once again I cannot say it any other way. I do not answer to any coach ever. No coach hired me to work a specific game or work in a particular conference. When I work college games the supervisors I work for expect certain things and when you follow those expectations they continue to hire you. Baseball does not have a lot of umpires to work anytime and anywhere, so if a coach gets upset with an umpire, the supervisor might not have a lot of realistic choices to replace that umpire. Not everyone is available to work a 2:00 game in the afternoon if the coach gets thrown out by a certain umpire.

Don, I have attended multiple college camps for basketball and I did not see one coach evaluating me or deciding who they were going to hire to any of these conferences at the D1, D2, D3 and NAIA level.

Now a supervisor might have a different point of view, but I am not a supervisor. I am only an umpire who knows that I will not be liked or loved every time I step onto a field. I also know there are places I will never go back to because of this fact. I also know that I will be around longer than many of the coaches I see. A coach at the D2 level that I worked multiple times is resigned (and adamantly disagreed with my about a rule application and the supervisor supported me and my partner btw) so I am not going to worry about some guy that in 2 or 3 years might get fired or released from his job.

Also you are overplaying my opinion about coaches. I might not trust or even respect many coaches. That does not mean I will behave unprofessionally and not treat them with a lot of respect. I just know I will not rely on them to have my back or to necessarily be fair when the time presents itself. Also how many times do you know someone has a run in with a customer only to see them a couple of days later? I know that even for our HS playoffs, if a coach has been a jerk to us; it is very possible we will see them in the post season. So I am not getting how this is a business owner/customer relationship. And you can follow the money all you like and coaches also have hire ups they have to answer to as well.

Peace