What's a rat to do?

[kawallac]

Dixie Pre-Major (15-16) tournament. R2 takes large secondary lead. F2 throws down to second. R2 beats throw feet first, is laying on back, foot on bag. I'm in first base coaching box. No call by umpire located at SS. F6 points at runner's foot says, "He's off the base!" and rolls the ball to the mound (out 3). Umpire makes the out call. Defense leaves field. I immediately ask umpire to request help from umpire on first base side. He says it's his call. I agree and say that we (me and umpire near first) had a different view. He says he "had the angle." I say that we had a better angle and again ask him to ask the other umpire what he saw.

Obviously, it didn't go my way. The defensive players are laughing and high-fiving. R2 says he was on the base the whole time.

What is the best way to get an umpire to request help?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by kawallac

Dixie Pre-Major (15-16) tournament. R2 takes large secondary lead. F2 throws down to second. R2 beats throw feet first, is laying on back, foot on bag. I'm in first base coaching box. No call by umpire located at SS. F6 points at runner's foot says, "He's off the base!" and rolls the ball to the mound (out 3). Umpire makes the out call. Defense leaves field. I immediately ask umpire to request help from umpire on first base side. He says it's his call. I agree and say that we (me and umpire near first) had a different view. He says he "had the angle." I say that we had a better angle and again ask him to ask the other umpire what he saw.

Obviously, it didn't go my way. The defensive players are laughing and high-fiving. R2 says he was on the base the whole time.

What is the best way to get an umpire to request help?

Go to the dugout. The inning's over. Prepare your kids to play defense.

[BigUmp56]

Rich is right. You did all you should do by asking him to go for help. It's his choice whether or not he will. If he's confident his call was correct and he had the angle he shouldn't be going for help.


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

It sounds like he was a pretty gullible umpire to let the fielder talk him into making an out call by rolling the ball to the mound. If the runner were really off the base, the umpire would have called it right away, and not waited for the fielder to trick him.

That fielder would have just gotten a blank, vacuous look from yours truly, and somebody really should go pick up the ball before the runner takes off for third.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

It sounds like he was a pretty gullible umpire to let the fielder talk him into making an out call by rolling the ball to the mound. If the runner were really off the base, the umpire would have called it right away, and not waited for the fielder to trick him.

That fielder would have just gotten a blank, vacuous look from yours truly, and somebody really should go pick up the ball before the runner takes off for third.

How quick we are to throw our own under the bus!

Consider who wrote the OP.

Maybe there was a cloud of dust or the glove was behind the foot and BU was simply delaying his call until he saw the ball in the glove. I know I'M in no hurry to make the call in this situation and maybe BU wasn't either.
Offensive coach however sees the delay as indecisive and from his perspective the BU was tricked or manipulated.
But I will hold out the possibility that the first base coach 95' away had a better look and is looking at it totally impartially.

[Arnold A.]

Well said, Don.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

How quick we are to throw our own under the bus!

Consider who wrote the OP.

Maybe there was a cloud of dust or the glove was behind the foot and BU was simply delaying his call until he saw the ball in the glove. I know I'M in no hurry to make the call in this situation and maybe BU wasn't either.
Offensive coach however sees the delay as indecisive and from his perspective the BU was tricked or manipulated.
But I will hold out the possibility that the first base coach 95' away had a better look and is looking at it totally impartially.

I don't know the person who wrote the OP, but I give the person the benefit of the doubt as to truthfulness. He said R2's foot was on the base, and that he beat the throw. It really sounds like F6 called the play for the umpire.

Are you implying that coaches are incapable of the objective reporting of a given play? He didn't say anything about dust clouds or gloves behind feet, or any other unusual situation. He said that the runner beat the throw, and that the runners foot was on the base. Are saying that he's lying?

I see a problem in a fielder calling the play, and rolling the ball away before hearing anything from the umpire. That is the part I find the most disturbing here. I don't like base coaches signaling "safe" either, which tempts me to call "out" just because they felt the need to "help out." This is the same thing. No way does F6 get the call from me after showing me up by making the call for me and not waiting for my call before discarding the ball.

[BigUmp56]

It's kind of like a batter looking at a borderline pitch on a 3-2 count taking off for first before I make the call.


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I was going to use that example as well, then forgot to do so in the editing.

[kawallac]

Thank you for some of you looking through the obvious sterotypes for coaches to give some insight to this issue. The question was what else could I have done? Later in the game between innings the umpire at first base told me "off the record" at my request that he saw what I saw - the runner safe and in full contact with the base. I respect umpires and their authority on the field. I also expect them to respect the players and the game enough to do what it takes to arrive at the correct calls and rulings during the game.

[tibear]

Originally Posted by kawallac

Thank you for some of you looking through the obvious sterotypes for coaches to give some insight to this issue. The question was what else could I have done? Later in the game between innings the umpire at first base told me "off the record" at my request that he saw what I saw - the runner safe and in full contact with the base. I respect umpires and their authority on the field. I also expect them to respect the players and the game enough to do what it takes to arrive at the correct calls and rulings during the game.

No self-respecting umpire will ever tell a coach that his partner was wrong. It further enhances the believe that umpires don't know what they're doing. I've had many coach/players/fans ask me if I thought my partner made the right call, I just shrug and say, "Obviously so because he felt comfortable enough with the call that he didn't feel the need to ask me for help." At which point I turn and walk away.

This way it doesn't say that he was wrong or right but rather as an umpire, I don't comment on any of my partner's calls.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by kawallac

I also expect them to respect the players and the game enough to do what it takes to arrive at the correct calls and rulings during the game.

No. It appears you expect them to do what you think it takes to arrive at what you think is the correct call.

You were given good and correct answers to your question of "what's a Rat to do?"

Unfortunately, it appears you've known all along of what a Rat does, whine.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I don't know the person who wrote the OP, but I give the person the benefit of the doubt as to truthfulness.

I said nothing about truth or untruth, only perspective.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Are you implying that coaches are incapable of the objective reporting of a given play?

Generally yes.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

He didn't say anything about dust clouds or gloves behind feet, or any other unusual situation. He said that the runner beat the throw, and that the runners foot was on the base. Are saying that he's lying?

I'm saying that from 95' away and a different angle he may not have seen the glove behind the foot or better yet may not even know what an "unusual" situation looks like(from an umpires perspective).
What you don't know you don't report.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I see a problem in a fielder calling the play,

That's my point. Because of perspectives we don't really know if the ump was influenced by the rolling of the ball.
And instead of telling this coach that there may be reasons for the delayed call other than indecisiveness or incompetency you went straight to gullible.
Hence my comment about the bus.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

and rolling the ball away before hearing anything from the umpire. That is the part I find the most disturbing here.

You find it disturbing, that's well and good, I find it amusing especially if R2 is safe.
It's gamesmanship. I ususally don't take offense, in fact, I like a ball player that tries to work the angles and has that much competitive spirit.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I don't like base coaches signaling "safe" either, which tempts me to call "out" just because they felt the need to "help out." This is the same thing. No way does F6 get the call from me after showing me up by making the call for me and not waiting for my call before discarding the ball.

For me it's a HTBT call in terms of being shown up.
If you have a good F6 and a good umpire and both know it's an obvious out and I'm just waiting to see if he has control, I don't see it as showing me up if he rolls the ball before I call it.
Nor do I have a problem when F2 fires the ball to F5(prior to my call) after strike 3 when the pitch was in the zone I've been calling all day. When he does it on a marginal pitch however is when I will take exception.

[UmpLarryJohnson]

Originally Posted by kawallac

Later in the game between innings the umpire at first base told me "off the record" at my request that he saw what I saw - the runner safe and in full contact with the base.

hahaha this is why good umpires NEVER tell anything to rats offtherecord...its ALWAYS used against them later......he was FOOLISH to answer you at all, i know I wouldnt' have


now you got another umpire who learned this lesson the HARD way...hell never be honest with a RAT ever again

R2 says he was on the base the whole time.

Wow, THERES a shocker!



and STEVE - RATS are RATS. they are all but uncapable of seeing any thing objectively on a baseball field...i expect them to lie, cheat, and steal for THIER TEAM and i am RARELY disapointed.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by UmpLarryJohnson

and STEVE - RATS are RATS. they are all but uncapable of seeing any thing objectively on a baseball field...i expect them to lie, cheat, and steal for THIER TEAM and i am RARELY disapointed.

The first lesson I learned 21+ years ago when starting out was that all the players are rats, and all the coaches are coke soakers, so yes, I'm familiar with the concept.